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Beer in Grocery Stores

This forum is for discussing everything beer retail: LCBO, Beer Store, Grocery Stores and Indie Stores.

Moderators: Craig, Cass

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El Pinguino
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Post by El Pinguino »

Does anyone know what the rules in Ontario are about selling "singles"? Does the LCBO seem to despise breaking up 4 or 6-packs because of some rules?

Just thinking that a grocery store, specializing in single bottle sales (craft and macro), could be lucrative.

I am a fan of this move in general, as it is the start of change. Look forward to seeing how things develop.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

El Pinguino wrote:Just thinking that a grocery store, specializing in single bottle sales (craft and macro), could be lucrative.
My guess: Singles might compel people to try, on one store visit half a dozen new beers they might otherwise never take a chance on as a six-pack. This is good for quality craft beer and very bad for lesser beer. Imagine a lot of people doing this type of purchasing regularly. The education curve is opened up and the market is rapidly exposed to new stuff.

The old model of buy-six-to-try-one was probably keeping people in the dark about brands they hadn't tried yet. I know it has me. Who wants five extra of something they weren't sure of to begin with?
In Beerum Veritas

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Ale's What Cures Ya
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Post by Ale's What Cures Ya »

I welcome any change that allows looser sales.

It may be at a glacial pace, but positive changes will eventually snowball to private retail.

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spinrsx
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Post by spinrsx »

They sell beer at grocery stores in quebec and theres nothing exciting there.. how would this be that much different?

midlife crisis
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Post by midlife crisis »

El Pinguino wrote:Does anyone know what the rules in Ontario are about selling "singles"? Does the LCBO seem to despise breaking up 4 or 6-packs because of some rules?

Just thinking that a grocery store, specializing in single bottle sales (craft and macro), could be lucrative.

I am a fan of this move in general, as it is the start of change. Look forward to seeing how things develop.
Remember the old Mix Six fridge in some TBS stores? There was one in the Sheppard (east of Yonge) outlet for example. Presumably this is perfectly legal and just a matter of (in)convenience for TBS/LCBO.

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Post by chris_schryer »

Jordan,
While I agree with you that the big craft guys might be able to get a few facings in the stores, I thin you're being overly optimistic. Yes, even Loblaws stocks premium/boutique products, but many of them are actually either sub-brands of major companies (like a lot of the organic/natural products), or are still actually rather large companies themselves. Remember that Shocktop is "craft " and "premium" to the vast majority of beer drinkers; craft beer geeks are not their market focus. The craft section in most grocery stores will be mostly Rickard's, Shocktop, Creemore (which will be nice), Granville Island, Goose Island (also nice to have), Unibroue (fine by me), and maybe a few labels of Mill St, Steam Whistle, and maybe a Muskoka or Beau's. Maybe. I would be surprised to see a Great Lakes or Amsterdam product.
Listing and shelving fees in competitive categories at major grocers are shocking. And that's not even touching the amount of back-room dealing that's also *required*. The level of which would make the worst pay-to-play breweries and bars blush.
I agree, anything moving forward is a good step, but for our little niche of super duper craft beer fans, the only good news here, is that something else might happen at a future date. Maybe.

Kel Varnsen
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Post by Kel Varnsen »

I honestly think this is really interesting. Sure metro and walmart probably won't have anything interesting. But like in the US there are lots of other grocery stores that position themselves as different by selling higher end or higher quality products. Look at the beer selection at just about any US Wegmans. I can easily see either Sobeys or Farm Boy or of course Whole Foods, wanting to sell higher quality (and higher price point of course) local or "crafted" products.

The thing is that this could take some of the sales load off the LCBO. I mean I think most people will agree that the beer sections at the LCBO are pretty much at capacity. But imagine if Amsterdam realized they didn't need to bother shipping as much Natural Blonde or Great Lakes didn't need to ship as much Red Leaf ale to the LCBO, because they all of the sudden had a ton of more outlets to sell that beer. With all the free shelf space, imagine the cool stuff that could end up at the LCBO.
Listing and shelving fees in competitive categories at major grocers are shocking. And that's not even touching the amount of back-room dealing that's also *required*. The level of which would make the worst pay-to-play breweries and bars blush.
This could be interesting to watch though. The listing fees thing could get people angry. I mean if breweries hate paying Beer Store listing fees now, imagine when they have to compete with the big guys to pay listing fees at metro, and then AB is putting up these huge and of aisle displays for the super bowl and things like that.

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S. St. Jeb
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Post by S. St. Jeb »

Kel Varnsen wrote: I think most people will agree that the beer sections at the LCBO are pretty much at capacity.
There's that whole stupid SKU issue that has been discussed elsewhere, but as for physical capacity, I won't argue your point generally, but I know that my local could squeeze more in if they wanted to.

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Post by Kel Varnsen »

S. St. Jeb wrote:
Kel Varnsen wrote: I think most people will agree that the beer sections at the LCBO are pretty much at capacity.
There's that whole stupid SKU issue that has been discussed elsewhere, but as for physical capacity, I won't argue your point generally, but I know that my local could squeeze more in if they wanted to.
Of course they could add more physical capacity if they wanted to I am sure. Redo the stores so everything is packed in like costco and you could fit in a ton more beer.

Looking at it more generally I live in Ottawa. The LCBO right near me always has a ton of Lug Tread. It is always a bunch of 4 packs stacked at least 3-4 feet high. Now if beer were sold in grocery stores, Beau's sales of Lug Tread probably wouldn't jump by a huge amount. But at the same time they would have more places to sell it (the Ottawa grocery store Farm Boy already sells cheese made with Beaus beer). So they wouldn't need that huge stack of Lug Tread in my LCBO. And something else could be put in the same location.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Kel Varnsen wrote:
S. St. Jeb wrote:
Kel Varnsen wrote: I think most people will agree that the beer sections at the LCBO are pretty much at capacity.
There's that whole stupid SKU issue that has been discussed elsewhere, but as for physical capacity, I won't argue your point generally, but I know that my local could squeeze more in if they wanted to.
Of course they could add more physical capacity if they wanted to I am sure. Redo the stores so everything is packed in like costco and you could fit in a ton more beer.
^ False Dilemma. The opposite extreme isn't necessary. Costco is an excessive (and unpleasant) extreme while LCBO is the other - they waste floor capacity just like a government office space would. They don't operate as a common retailer of comestibles. Huge wide aisles with very few and often very low shelves. They could be at least half as efficient as Premier Gourmet if they wanted to sell a lot more kinds of beer in the given square footage. They could have somewhat taller shelves closer to the height of any Sobey's or Metro. That's moderate. It's really weird how much space they need over & around everything, it's like they're scared everyone is a theif so this way they can somehow watch over people better and prevent that (LOL if people are going to klept, you won't stop it by running a store at half capacity and the losses will be offset by the many things people can't buy.)

I actually agree this cleverly wasted space in larger LC stores is all for the illusion that LCBO's are 'bigger' than they really are with streamlined product and higher yield / lower SKU's / greater convenience for them (as with not breaking six-packs, absurd!) I wonder if this lack of effort on their part will slowly change in the event of grocery stores doing a decent job of displaying & promoting a good range of product (supposing that is allowed to happen & they show up the Provincial retailer for its shortcomings, yes we'll see if that's ever going to happen first.)

Gosh I'm cynical. Prove me wrong though.
In Beerum Veritas

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FEUO
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Post by FEUO »

I disagree with LCBO shelf space and capacity issues related to craft beer.
Down here in beer wasteland we have 3 bigger LCBO's and each has a decent selection of craft with varying amounts of space. The biggest store is actually getting worse and converted an entire shelf (2 rows, aisles on both sides) from single bottles of interesting craft beer that BT'ers would be interested in to 6 packs of craft standards. Another couple shelves once full of craft now jammed with 6 and 12 pack macros.
In this case the beer person/manager has given up, moved on, or is letting the inmates run the asylum. Lord knows there are a couple grumpy ol f'ers in that store who likely take issue with all the singles handling.

The other two stores meanwhile are booming. More new and interesting stuff coming in, enthusiasm by the staff for unique beers, and more shelf space being given for craft. A staffer at one of those two told me last year that craft beers sales is up over 700% from the previous year and they have expanded and grown since. So in this case it was driven by a manager and happily accepted by the staff.

tl:dr; every LCBO is different.

As for the changes, while it is a baby step in the right direction the whole "big store" b.s. is disturbing. Going through the LCBO and TBS selection remains the same. Convenience? Hardly. There are enough LCBO's and TBS around that argument doesn't hold up for me.
Its taken 30 yrs for this baby step.... at this rate I'll be long dead and gone before this province catches up with states like MI or NY of 2015.

Inkling
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Post by Inkling »

spinrsx wrote:They sell beer at grocery stores in quebec and theres nothing exciting there.. how would this be that much different?
Exciting is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I find enough stuff that I find exciting but it's pretty much all Quebec micro stuff. That is true of most of the depaneurs as well though.

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saints_gambit
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Post by saints_gambit »

Inkling wrote:
spinrsx wrote:They sell beer at grocery stores in quebec and theres nothing exciting there.. how would this be that much different?
Exciting is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I find enough stuff that I find exciting but it's pretty much all Quebec micro stuff. That is true of most of the depaneurs as well though.
This is a really important point. You have to separate yourself temporarily from your consumer preference. Bell's Oberon might not be very exciting, but it's their flagship. You don't get Hopslam without selling a huge amount of Oberon. Bell's is now at 330,000 bbl and one of the reasons that breweries like Steam Whistle and Mill Street stagnate around 75,000 HL is that the retail opportunities for their products have been pretty limited.

Do they excite you? No. But about 97% of the beer made in the world wouldn't excite people on this board. Craft beer has something like 4% of the Ontario market and most of the members of this board routinely crap all over 75% of the stuff made in this province. We're literally interested in about 1% of products by volume.

In the long run the additional market share craft beer gains will create better craft beer. If you want positive change you have to stop thinking about the short term and about your personal preference. "But the beer the grocery stores will stock won't be exciting" is about the worst argument it is possible to make because it's incredibly subjective. Yes there will be macro gak, but it will also spur growth in larger craft breweries, which will make the segment stronger which will lead to more influence and consumer awareness. Dare to think five years ahead.
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Post by Frere Ambroise »

Or we could just drive an hour outside Toronto and ask how all the Agency stores how they handle all these troublesome social responsibility issues - they seem to have it figured out.

Already available at Grocery Gateway: http://www.grocerygateway.com/Products/ ... s=ale&nm=2

Just wondering -- would we see Loblaws and affiliated chains just have a wall of this: http://pcbeer.ca/ -- imagine that -- a store that unfairly distributes their own brands - oh wait, we are trying to get away from that. :wink:

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saints_gambit
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Post by saints_gambit »

Frere Ambroise wrote:Or we could just drive an hour outside Toronto and ask how all the Agency stores how they handle all these troublesome social responsibility issues - they seem to have it figured out.

Already available at Grocery Gateway: http://www.grocerygateway.com/Products/ ... s=ale&nm=2

Just wondering -- would we see Loblaws and affiliated chains just have a wall of this: http://pcbeer.ca/ -- imagine that -- a store that unfairly distributes their own brands - oh wait, we are trying to get away from that. :wink:
I'm sure they'll try that and then eventually they'll realize that the PC Genuine Draft is objectively the worst beer on the market. Might end up like Trader Joe's and outsource it to Unibroue.
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