LCBO and the HST

[SteelbackGuy]

The LCBO has so many skeletons in the closet, that it isn't funny. But this thread reminds me of something................................

[cfrancis]

I think LCBO has some competition in the way of bars and restaurants. I mean yes it is more expensive to drink at a bar but it is another way to drink.

Um, where do bars and restaurants in Ontario buy their booze?

See this has always confused me. I mean do all bars and restaurants really buy all their booze from the LCBO? Then why when I read things like the blog on the Beau's website do they talk about having accounts and making deliveries directly to bars? Is the LCBO acting like a middle man in this situation and taking a cut for doing nothing at all?

See Beer and Liquor/Wine are two different animals. Breweries can sell directly as long as they abide by the provincial laws and pay the appropriate provincial and federal taxes.

As far as I know bars buy their liquor and wine from LCBO. So there is no competition and breweries from outside Ontario are sold exclusively through their distributors that also have to pay all appropriate taxes for import.

[Belgian]

See this has always confused me. I mean do all bars and restaurants really buy all their booze from the LCBO? Then why when I read things like the blog on the Beau's website do they talk about having accounts and making deliveries directly to bars? Is the LCBO acting like a middle man in this situation and taking a cut for doing nothing at all?

That's how it works here. The NSLC is the only place allowed to wholesale or import alcohol. If it enters the province and gets sold, they get a cut. If it gets made in the province and gets sold, they get a cut. And bars and restaurants don't get a discount as far as I know - which is one reason why it costs so much more than retail.

Well the LCBO hardly "does nothing at all!"

The LCBO collects lots of money. They act one-sidedly as unquestionable gatekeepers, keeping lots of great internationally-renowned products out of consumers' reach. They prevent all competition and try to dictate how and when grown adults can buy and drink alcohol 'responsibly.' They 'educate' us about 'Beers of the World' and 'inform' us that the LCBO offers a great diversity of beers.

That's hardly just being a middle-man and 'doing nothing'. Thanks LCBO! Where would we be without you?

[mintjellie]

See this has always confused me. I mean do all bars and restaurants really buy all their booze from the LCBO? Then why when I read things like the blog on the Beau's website do they talk about having accounts and making deliveries directly to bars? Is the LCBO acting like a middle man in this situation and taking a cut for doing nothing at all?

That's how it works here. The NSLC is the only place allowed to wholesale or import alcohol. If it enters the province and gets sold, they get a cut. If it gets made in the province and gets sold, they get a cut. And bars and restaurants don't get a discount as far as I know - which is one reason why it costs so much more than retail.

Well the LCBO hardly "does nothing at all!"

The LCBO collects lots of money. They act one-sidedly as unquestionable gatekeepers, keeping lots of great internationally-renowned products out of consumers' reach. They prevent all competition and try to dictate how and when grown adults can buy and drink alcohol 'responsibly.' They 'educate' us about 'Beers of the World' and 'inform' us that the LCBO offers a great diversity of beers.

That's hardly just being a middle-man and 'doing nothing'. Thanks LCBO! Where would we be without you?

Well played, sir.

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

This article enraged me until I remembered that in a few months I will be free of the LCBO and its draconian bullshit.

It's all par for the course though. The LCBO can do almost anything it wants and hide behind the veil of "social responsibility."

[shintriad]

Just caught this National Post article.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blog ... -lcbo.aspx

Slam dunk.

[Belgian]

Yes it is such a lie that a 12-dollar six pack will make you an alcoholic whereas a 13-dollar six pack will deliver you from the evils of drink.

Ontario prices are already SO far off the charts it is ridiculous - in fact a 20% drop in prices would cause no social harm.

Keep in mind the LCBO is never above lowering prices that much whenever they actually want you to buy more! Look at the clearance items. Usually a nice reduction - when it suits them of course.

Similarly, people were feeling less confident to spend money last year. There were some cheap Vintages releases, good wines in the more affordable range to hustle some product through the stores. This is deliberate promotion of drinking - after all, why not let alcohol consumption drop now and again if that's more healthy?

Because. The LCBO just wants to squeeze the booze buck as hard as the market will bear. This isn't about health, and LCBO pricing does not enforce social responsibility. The board have no way to control everyone's drinking to a 'healthy' level, so long as the average non-wealthy person can still get hold of enough alcohol to cause themselves serious harm.

Now - weathly people - I suppose they have a license to drink to damaging excess, since LCBO pricing controls have no effect on them. And so I rest my case.

[Philip1]

From The Toronto Star last Friday

http://tinyurl.com/24fwvum

In the wake of the Star’s disclosure Wednesday that the Liquor Control Board of Ontario raised its markups by 7.5 per cent to claw back any consumer savings from the business-friendly harmonized sales tax, the government scrambled to defend the move.

Finance Minister Dwight Duncan, who insists most companies will pass along any reduced costs from the HST to Ontarians, said it would be reckless to lower prices on beer, wine and spirits — even though tax changes would have made them cheaper.

“We believe that socially responsible pricing is important,” said Duncan, referring to the minimum price for selling booze in Ontario."

To control consumption, the government sets minimum prices for all product categories.


As of April 12, when the floor price was raised, the least that can be charged for a 24-bottle case of 5% alcohol beer is $25.95, excluding $2.40 deposit...

...Duncan said the changes were “revenue neutral” to the government because the LCBO’s price shifts offset a $24 million tax break awarded bar owners and restaurateurs in January.

But he appeared to undermine his argument of social responsibility by suggesting publicans could pass savings onto drinkers.

“They are actually getting a $24 million cut. Will they pass that on . . . ideally they will, it’s a competitive market,” the treasurer said.

[Bobbyok]

From The Toronto Star last Friday

http://tinyurl.com/24fwvum

In the wake of the Star’s disclosure Wednesday that the Liquor Control Board of Ontario raised its markups by 7.5 per cent to claw back any consumer savings from the business-friendly harmonized sales tax, the government scrambled to defend the move.

Finance Minister Dwight Duncan, who insists most companies will pass along any reduced costs from the HST to Ontarians, said it would be reckless to lower prices on beer, wine and spirits — even though tax changes would have made them cheaper.

“We believe that socially responsible pricing is important,” said Duncan, referring to the minimum price for selling booze in Ontario."

To control consumption, the government sets minimum prices for all product categories.


As of April 12, when the floor price was raised, the least that can be charged for a 24-bottle case of 5% alcohol beer is $25.95, excluding $2.40 deposit...

...Duncan said the changes were “revenue neutral” to the government because the LCBO’s price shifts offset a $24 million tax break awarded bar owners and restaurateurs in January.

But he appeared to undermine his argument of social responsibility by suggesting publicans could pass savings onto drinkers.

“They are actually getting a $24 million cut. Will they pass that on . . . ideally they will, it’s a competitive market,” the treasurer said.

Would the majority of the general public ever believe that "social responsibility" pricing is a boon to the big brewers? Because that's the only reason it exists - to limit the damage of undercutting to the macros. It does nothing to keep people from drinking and everything to inflate profits of big breweries whose products are essentially a commodity - because they don't have to cut their prices to match somebody who undercuts them.

[biegaman]

It does nothing to keep people from drinking and everything to inflate profits of big breweries whose products are essentially a commodity...

I can get angry about the fact that this system hides behind the veil of "social responsibility" - they haven't a clue what true social responsibility entails.

What really upsets me is your first point, that price inflation doesn't keep people from drinking. It's true. This sort of economic tactic might apply to some things like home entertain systems, when the price goes up people say to themselves 'ok, I don't really need it that badly' and pass on the purchase. To think it does, to treat things like wine and beer as pure commodities is naive; alcohol is a large part of the national diet and, rightfully so in many cases, it should be regarded similarly as bread or eggs or milk. (We've seen public outcry, petitions and protests in other parts of the world - beer in England, wine in France, for instance - over issues, both economic and cultural, that would speak to this point.)

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, this is the reality for many people. Having worked the retail side of this industry I saw it the last Thursday of every month when the welfare checks were handed out. The lineup went out the door and around the corner on some weeks. Given the choice of only proper food or beer, a lot of people chose beer. What money was left went to whatever cheap foods they could afford (chips, Coke, McDonalds). Beer came first, food came second. Again, right or wrong, that is the reality (to one degree or another) for a significant portion of the population.

As a personal aside, I remember my heart broke for this little girl whose parents were "regulars" (to put it politely) at my Beer Store, one day I could overhear her begging her father for a new jacket, saying the ratty and holed one she had left her cold at school, and her father (while buying his 24 of Blue) told her impatiently that they couldn't afford it. Child services later intervened with the family and we, the Beer Store employees, were called to be character witnesses in the case because it was deemed that we knew the family better than their neighbors.

Their obvious addiction aside, these people were good parents in that they really did love their child very much - whether they were fit to raise it is another issue...but the point is just to illustrate that some people will pay for beer no matter the price, and at whatever cost. Raising prices might encourage the casual drinker to pick up a six-pack rather than a twelve to keep in the house or what have you, but that's not the demographic "social responsibility" should be targeting.

I'm not suggesting lowering the price of alcohol. In fact, I have no answers; I only wish to highlight the issue relevant which is: who does this "social responsibility" really affect and how? The problem is obviously much more complicated than checking IDs, refusing intoxicants, or, most recently, raising the prices. Until we see a real discussion, one that doesn't prescribe to short logic or superficial answers, I fail to believe this is about anything but inflating the profits of the big breweries.

[Belgian]

*edit*

I'm not suggesting lowering the price of alcohol. In fact, I have no answers; I only wish to highlight the issue relevant which is: who does this "social responsibility" really affect and how?

I think there are really only two choices -- a society with alcohol, and a society that does not allow it at all - and I sincerely believe the outcome is not really affected by price. The irresponsible dad of that poor suffering girl you describe just is who he is - in a different world, this man would be just as negligent in otherways if not squandering family money on beer.

This Dad is sort of a 'criminal by nature', if you will. Do you really think the price of beer will shape this man's character so that he will act any differently? I don't, and that is my opinion.

It's ludicrous to imagine people are puppets that can be precisely controlled by the exact pricing of acohol. They are just making that sh-t up!!

From The Toronto Star last Friday

http://tinyurl.com/24fwvum

“We believe that socially responsible pricing is important,” said Duncan, referring to the minimum price for selling booze in Ontario."

To control consumption, the government sets minimum prices for all product categories.

......

But he appeared to undermine his argument of social responsibility by suggesting publicans could pass savings onto drinkers.

“They are actually getting a $24 million cut. Will they pass that on . . . ideally they will, it’s a competitive market,” the treasurer said.

To be fair bar prices of liquor are not store prices - not by a long shot - so a slight drop in bar prices would be good for everyone.

Or to put it another way, going out to drink in Toronto is getting ridiculously expensive. Like everything else perhaps. Toronto may shoot itself in the foot.