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LCBO Winter Warmers 2010

This forum is for discussing everything beer retail: LCBO, Beer Store, Grocery Stores and Indie Stores.

Moderators: Craig, Cass

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cratez
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Post by cratez »

pootz wrote: I welcome what is available (even though much is the same as last year) because under the consumer despotism of state market monopolies it's better than nothing...but let's not lose sight of the fact that it could be far far better.

The average beer geek in CowFart, Kansas has more access to a larger selection of domestic micro brews, at a local retail level, than we do. Timorously and enthusiastically awaiting the arrival of the few consumer choices a state monopoly decides to allow is a consumer conditioning-rationing game.
I'll venture a guess that this is exactly how most Ontario beer geeks feel about our alcohol retail distribution system. Leave it to pootz to capture this frustration with his typical lucid and succinct prose.

The improving quality of seasonal releases with extremely limited (rationed?) distribution outside of the GTA doesn't change the fact that most Ontario consumers lack consistent access to a wide range of beers and styles that have become standard in many American outlets, including those in remote communities.

As a hop lover I was pleased to see Nasty Habit, Garrison IPA, and Corne du Diable arrive for the fall months but after two or three stores received their initial allotment, all three beers sold out within a couple of weeks and we won't see any of them return now that the release is over. Meanwhile Orval and Belhaven Stout have yet to make their way down here and perhaps they won't appear at all.

'Seasonal' therefore refers to beer drinkers having a few weeks at a time, and maybe 12 weeks total throughout the year, to purchase flavourful world class beers. After that the Board reverts back to a year-round selection which does not include a single DIPA, barley wine, imperial stout, saison, old ale, gueuze, or an American-style porter worth drinking. In a province with 13 million people and a decently respectable beer culture, our retail selection (including these 'better' seasonal releases) is simply unacceptable and claims to the contrary reflect a state of denial. I would know since not too long ago I was under the impression that 'we don't have it that bad.'

Lately instead of funding the Controllers while simultaneously complaining about how dire things are, I've been frequenting my local beer bars much more often than usual and I just purchased a haul from the States that will probably last until the holidays. In the end spending my dollars elsewhere can only be a good thing since the independent businesses (bars and beer stores) that pedal the real premium stuff actually give a shit about beer, the products their selling, and the customers who support them.

While I happily support crafters like DDC, Southern Tier, Black Oak, and Grand River when they somehow manage to fight their way onto the shelves, I find myself relying far less on the Board for quality beer.

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

The_Jester wrote:
markaberrant wrote:I know of some craft brewers that submitted entries to the LCBO, but were turned down.

Who?
Sorry, not going to say who. I have also spoken to owners of 2 of the biggest craft breweries in the states, neither can believe how ridiculously difficult the LCBO makes market entry; as such, 1 of them hasn't even bothered, though they would absolutely love to be selling their product here.

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

re: Cratez's post above: I love it. I have mentioned several times on this message board and others that you guys need to turn your back on the LCBO, so I'm glad to hear more folks saying it.

Sorta related - on a whim I went into an SLGA (Sasks equivalent of the LCBO) store this weekend and bought a 6-pack of St Ambroise Oatmeal Stout, as it has probably been close to 4 years since I last tried a bottle. I am trying to think of my last beer purchase at the SLGA, and I think it was early spring of 08 when they brought in Samuel Smiths Imperial Stout.

TheSevenDuffs
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Post by TheSevenDuffs »

markaberrant wrote: I am trying to think of my last beer purchase at the SLGA, and I think it was early spring of 08 when they brought in Samuel Smiths Imperial Stout.
Where do you get most of your beer? Doesn't seem like there are any large American cities within a close drive to Regina...

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

TheSevenDuffs wrote:Where do you get most of your beer? Doesn't seem like there are any large American cities within a close drive to Regina...
Glad that you asked! There are many other people like me (beer, wine and scotch fanatics mostly), who just stopped buying liquor from the SLGA due to poor selection. Tons of people have been buying their liquor in Alberta or North Dakota for years, even a dump like Minot, ND (4 hours from Regina) has a decent beer selection. And most beer geeks here are avid homebrewers, Regina's ALES club is one of the strongest in North America (we finished in 4th place last year), and we just ordered 3500lbs of grain, that makes for a lot of beer that you don't have to buy commercially.

So the govt finally realized there is a market share they are not catering to, and as such 2 private liquor stores (1 each in Regina and Saskatoon) opened just over a year ago. The private stores can only carry products that the SLGA doesn't, so these are essentially premium stores. Just in the last 6 months or so, we have gotten in Russian River, Lost Abbey, Cantillon and Stone, not to mention excellent craft beer from across Canada (though there is a sizable hole when it comes to Ontario), as well as regular stock from Anchor, Rogue, North Coast, Pike, Raasted, tons of Belgians and more. By all accounts, the private stores have been thriving, and along with that have been better beer bars/gastropubs that are also bringing in interesting and exclusive product (they can basically operate like a private store and bring in whatever they want as well, so we see special casks from Half Pints, one offs from Alberta, different Mill St kegs, Hair of the Dog, Dogfish Head, 3 Floyds, Founders, Bells, japanese imports, and on and on). It is pretty amazing, though not surprising, what competition does for selection.

The SLGA stores have pretty much given up on real craft beer and left it to the privates, they just keep what they always had (st ambroise oatmeal, the 3 standard unibroue, paddock wood, and a couple belgians). They brough in Sam Adams BL this year via the Moosehead deal, and Half Pints went with them earlier last year, but that is about it. They still collect their taxes and whatnot from the private stores, so they are happy, in fact they are probably making more money because a lot of that tax revenue is new revenue that they never had.

As I said, you can look back on this message board and see all the handwringing from Ontarians when I suggested to simply not buy from the LCBO, buy direct from local breweries, and suggested homebrewing as a viable option (really, what is more craft/local/fresh/independent than making your own excellent beer?). However, there is proof that this has worked in another province.

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Post by TheSevenDuffs »

markaberrant wrote:
TheSevenDuffs wrote:Where do you get most of your beer? Doesn't seem like there are any large American cities within a close drive to Regina...
Glad that you asked! There are many other people like me (beer, wine and scotch fanatics mostly), who just stopped buying liquor from the SLGA due to poor selection. Tons of people have been buying their liquor in Alberta or North Dakota for years, even a dump like Minot, ND (4 hours from Regina) has a decent beer selection. And most beer geeks here are avid homebrewers, Regina's ALES club is one of the strongest in North America (we finished in 4th place last year), and we just ordered 3500lbs of grain, that makes for a lot of beer that you don't have to buy commercially.

So the govt finally realized there is a market share they are not catering to, and as such 2 private liquor stores (1 each in Regina and Saskatoon) opened just over a year ago. The private stores can only carry products that the SLGA doesn't, so these are essentially premium stores. Just in the last 6 months or so, we have gotten in Russian River, Lost Abbey, Cantillon and Stone, not to mention excellent craft beer from across Canada (though there is a sizable hole when it comes to Ontario), as well as regular stock from Anchor, Rogue, North Coast, Pike, Raasted, tons of Belgians and more. By all accounts, the private stores have been thriving, and along with that have been better beer bars/gastropubs that are also bringing in interesting and exclusive product (they can basically operate like a private store and bring in whatever they want as well, so we see special casks from Half Pints, one offs from Alberta, different Mill St kegs, Hair of the Dog, Dogfish Head, 3 Floyds, Founders, Bells, japanese imports, and on and on). It is pretty amazing, though not surprising, what competition does for selection.

The SLGA stores have pretty much given up on real craft beer and left it to the privates, they just keep what they always had (st ambroise oatmeal, the 3 standard unibroue, paddock wood, and a couple belgians). They brough in Sam Adams BL this year via the Moosehead deal, and Half Pints went with them earlier last year, but that is about it. They still collect their taxes and whatnot from the private stores, so they are happy, in fact they are probably making more money because a lot of that tax revenue is new revenue that they never had.

As I said, you can look back on this message board and see all the handwringing from Ontarians when I suggested to simply not buy from the LCBO, buy direct from local breweries, and suggested homebrewing as a viable option (really, what is more craft/local/fresh/independent than making your own excellent beer?). However, there is proof that this has worked in another province.
If only the LCBO would follow suit and license a few of these private stores...

As for not buying from the LCBO ... that seems like a bit of a catch 22 to me. On one hand, I 100% agree with you. I don't want to support the LCBO and I would rather my hard earned money be in the pockets of the store owners across the border in Buffalo. On the other hand, it seems as though me purchasing craft beer at the LCBO is also important because it makes them more aware of the market that exists for these products in Ontario. And the hope is that as they awaken to this market, the selection will increase, making my trips across the border less and less of a necessity. Does that make sense?

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

TheSevenDuffs wrote:As for not buying from the LCBO ... that seems like a bit of a catch 22 to me. On one hand, I 100% agree with you. I don't want to support the LCBO and I would rather my hard earned money be in the pockets of the store owners across the border in Buffalo. On the other hand, it seems as though me purchasing craft beer at the LCBO is also important because it makes them more aware of the market that exists for these products in Ontario. And the hope is that as they awaken to this market, the selection will increase, making my trips across the border less and less of a necessity. Does that make sense?
I hear ya, and yeah, they do bring in some good beers. On the other hand, if you really want substantial change (and not just what they are willing to give you), you need to take a stand, rather than taking what you can get.

The other argument in favour of keeping the LCBO as lone provider is that they have stores across the province, so everyone can access this great beer they bring in. Again, it seems this is not even the case today, so why would anyone assume it to be this way in the future? And what good can come from having stale product sitting on shelves in far reaches of the province? Start with some private specialty stores in the big centres, remove the barriers for local craft beers to get on the shelf, and let the market naturally develop and evolve.

However, there needs to be a focussed effort for this to happen. The OCB, private importers and consumers all need to get on the same page and collectively determine an approach, find some support within govt, and then lobby. The impact of this would be far greater than a bunch of beer geeks just buying the good beers at the LCBO.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

markaberrant wrote: The SLGA stores have pretty much given up on real craft beer... They still collect their taxes and whatnot from the private stores, so they are happy, in fact they are probably making more money because a lot of that tax revenue is new revenue that they never had.
Exactly, probably the hardest thing for SLGA is to admit they were never right in the first place.

Privatization would also benefit our consumers AND the Liquor Cash Barons of Ontario. If only the LC could stop digging in their heels with that phony policy of 'protect the innocent! at all cost!' and sell beer where they alrady sell cigarettes.
In Beerum Veritas

TheSevenDuffs
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Post by TheSevenDuffs »

markaberrant wrote:
TheSevenDuffs wrote:As for not buying from the LCBO ... that seems like a bit of a catch 22 to me. On one hand, I 100% agree with you. I don't want to support the LCBO and I would rather my hard earned money be in the pockets of the store owners across the border in Buffalo. On the other hand, it seems as though me purchasing craft beer at the LCBO is also important because it makes them more aware of the market that exists for these products in Ontario. And the hope is that as they awaken to this market, the selection will increase, making my trips across the border less and less of a necessity. Does that make sense?
I hear ya, and yeah, they do bring in some good beers. On the other hand, if you really want substantial change (and not just what they are willing to give you), you need to take a stand, rather than taking what you can get.

The other argument in favour of keeping the LCBO as lone provider is that they have stores across the province, so everyone can access this great beer they bring in. Again, it seems this is not even the case today, so why would anyone assume it to be this way in the future? And what good can come from having stale product sitting on shelves in far reaches of the province? Start with some private specialty stores in the big centres, remove the barriers for local craft beers to get on the shelf, and let the market naturally develop and evolve.

However, there needs to be a focussed effort for this to happen. The OCB, private importers and consumers all need to get on the same page and collectively determine an approach, find some support within govt, and then lobby. The impact of this would be far greater than a bunch of beer geeks just buying the good beers at the LCBO.
The idea is a great one but the system in Ontario is such that I just don't see a change like this happening any time soon. I hope I am wrong though...

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

TheSevenDuffs wrote:The idea is a great one but the system in Ontario is such that I just don't see a change like this happening any time soon. I hope I am wrong though...
You guys just sound so defeatist. It is not like you are under communist rule here, so why do you act like it?

It was not much different here either. In addition to allowing private stores, they also just legalized Brew on Premise, you can now buy a bottle of wine in a restaurant and take home what you don't finish, they substantially dropped the taxation rate on alcohol production, and in-province producers can now deliver product directly to retailers or restaurants and pubs (previously, everything had to go the SLGA warehouse in Regina and sit for weeks/months). They have also turned a blind eye on some small order imported products that didn't quite have the correct labelling... in the past, this product would have been destroyed (sound familiar?).

The point is that you can indeed sway the government if you are organized, professional and committed. Modernizing alcohol rules are typically not at the top of the priority list for most politicians so you have to find a sympathetic ear, and spoon feed them what you want. Find the doctors, lawyers and movers/shakers of the province that are also afficianados of good beer and get them to help out. And again, the rationale needs to be professional... "we want to buy cheap high-alcohol beer in the grocery store, dude!" is likely not going to go too far.
Last edited by markaberrant on Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Yello to Mello »

TheSevenDuffs wrote:The idea is a great one but the system in Ontario is such that I just don't see a change like this happening any time soon. I hope I am wrong though...
No change will happen until its an election issue, and even then they would fart around with it. In the last 4 years I have read enough in the papers of everyone calling the province out on their BS alcohol regulations. The thing is protesting against alcohol regulations isnt the best for the public image so many are afraid to.
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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

Yello to Mello wrote:No change will happen until its an election issue, and even then they would fart around with it. In the last 4 years I have read enough in the papers of everyone calling the province out on their BS alcohol regulations. The thing is protesting against alcohol regulations isnt the best for the public image so many are afraid to.
Make the connections, and have those discussions behind closed doors. As I said, be professional, not an angry mob.

As an executive member of the ALES homebrew club for the past 4 years, we have recieved letters now and again from the SLGA asking for input regarding review of existing alcohol laws and proposed changes, and I know other groups and businesses are also consulted.

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Post by dutchcanuck »

So Mark...Any chance we could convince you to move to Ontario and give us a hand in our own beer revolt?
Last edited by dutchcanuck on Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yello to Mello
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Post by Yello to Mello »

markaberrant wrote:Make the connections, and have those discussions behind closed doors. As I said, be professional, not an angry mob.

As an executive member of the ALES homebrew club for the past 4 years, we have recieved letters now and again from the SLGA asking for input regarding review of existing alcohol laws and proposed changes, and I know other groups and businesses are also consulted.
Right now I only know 'angry mob'...lol. Connections take years. From a retailer point of view, obviously they dont want to give up floor space to wine. All spirit sales (especially whisky) is also up and their solution was to designate some vintage stores as 'whisky stores' and it doesnt seem any different as before.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, they may in the future designate some stores as microbrew stores that arent necessarily the older vintage stores.
The Maple Leaf Lounge (Canadian whisky forum): http://www.whiskywhiskywhisky.com/forum ... .php?f=204

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markaberrant
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Post by markaberrant »

Yello to Mello wrote:Right now I only know 'angry mob'...lol. Connections take years.
Well, there already is an OCB, and they even have OCB events within govt, so that is a start. Contact the OCB, ask what you can do to help them, tell them what you want to see as a consumer, get involved. Follow Cass' lead, why not form a private import "consortium," get to know brewers and distributors outside of Ontario, while at the same time making connections within the LCBO and learning about the system, and you get to drink good beer that you picked yourself! Hell, form a CAMRA chapter, or a beer appreciation club, teach a BJCP class/host tasting seminars, talk to local food producers/restaurants about beer and food pairings, volunteer to help plan or even start your own beer festival, whatever. Create awareness without simply bashing the government.

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