The Bar Towel

Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...while I don’t generally like to get involved in these type of discussions on a beer page (it’s one of the reasons I come here), I will say this: judging companies and making purchasing decisions on moral/ethical grounds can be a very slippery slope. Own any Apple products? Checked their human rights/employment practices? Sure you know where your spouses diamond came from? Got any lithium batteries? 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from the DRC. Do you know what it’s like there for the citizens? Certain that Ontario produce wasn’t picked by exploited or blackmailed migrant workers? Check out a doc called Migrant Dreams if you doubt me. Feeling confident that the fish you just ate wasn’t caught using the very destructive techniques of Bottom Trawling or Explosion Fishing? How many animals died to test your cosmetics or shampoo? If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

BeerIsGood wrote:Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...while I don’t generally like to get involved in these type of discussions on a beer page (it’s one of the reasons I come here), I will say this: judging companies and making purchasing decisions on moral/ethical grounds can be a very slippery slope. Own any Apple products? Checked their human rights/employment practices? Sure you know where your spouses diamond came from? Got any lithium batteries? 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from the DRC. Do you know what it’s like their for the citizens? Certain that Ontario produce wasn’t picked by exploited or blackmailed migrant workers? Check out a doc called Migrant Dreams if you doubt me. Feeling confident that the fish you just ate wasn’t caught using the very destructive techniques of Bottom Trawling or Explosion Fishing? How many animals died to test your cosmetics or shampoo? If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

Perfect.

Sent from my iPhone

BeerIsGood wrote:Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...while I don’t generally like to get involved in these type of discussions on a beer page (it’s one of the reasons I come here), I will say this: judging companies and making purchasing decisions on moral/ethical grounds can be a very slippery slope. Own any Apple products? Checked their human rights/employment practices? Sure you know where your spouses diamond came from? Got any lithium batteries? 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from the DRC. Do you know what it’s like their for the citizens? Certain that Ontario produce wasn’t picked by exploited or blackmailed migrant workers? Check out a doc called Migrant Dreams if you doubt me. Feeling confident that the fish you just ate wasn’t caught using the very destructive techniques of Bottom Trawling or Explosion Fishing? How many animals died to test your cosmetics or shampoo? If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

That's kind of a terrible argument.

Beer is one of the rare commodities where we have access to literally hundreds of alternatives for. If anything you just made a good argument in favour of doing more research about everything else you buy too. Obviously you don't HAVE to. Many people wont care who makes their beer or how but eating fish or owning a computer doesn't disqualify a consumer from deciding that someone/some company is a big enough jerk that they don't deserve their business. Anyways.

TheSevenDuffs wrote:

JaseWescott wrote:[quote="TheSevenDuffs"
355? Is that a typo?

Ya, I think you're probably right. Should be 12 oz bottles. I was quoting the LCBO....I should know better...

Is there any news on what's in the holiday gifts release this year?

JerCraigs wrote:

BeerIsGood wrote:Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

That's kind of a terrible argument.

... doesn't disqualify a consumer from deciding that someone/some company is a big enough jerk that they don't deserve their business. Anyways.

That's a fair rebuttal. 'Whattaboutism' is a logical fallacy, and it of course doesn't argue for accepting general moral collapse & not caring about our purchasing decisions.

It's still quite a leap to assume in advance of a verdict a company is guilty as charged. The charges are of course still of interest. I'd definitely wait for Founders to fully act in response, so that's my take on it and as always opinions are great things.

Belgian wrote:

JerCraigs wrote:

BeerIsGood wrote:Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

That's kind of a terrible argument.

... doesn't disqualify a consumer from deciding that someone/some company is a big enough jerk that they don't deserve their business. Anyways.

That's a fair rebuttal. 'Whattaboutism' is a logical fallacy, and it of course doesn't argue for accepting general moral collapse & not caring about our purchasing decisions.

It's still quite a leap to assume in advance of a verdict a company is guilty as charged. The charges are of course still of interest. I'd definitely wait for Founders to fully act in response, so that's my take on it and as always opinions are great things.

Agreed. Which is why I won’t purchase until it’s been settled. Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean I need to buy their stuff in the meantime.

My mother's side of the family is from the Grand Rapids area. Based on my 32 years of experience with and interaction amongst the people who live there, the idea of casual racism being tolerated in the workplace is not even remotely difficult to take at face value. Michigan is basically Arkansas with lakes, plus Detroit and Ann Arbor.

If it turns out the ex-employee is just butthurt over getting canned/not getting a raise then fine, I'll look silly on the internet. That's a risk I'm willing to take. In the mean time, I don't owe the brewery the benefit of the doubt any more than I owe them my money in the first place. Because I'm not a judge and this isn't a courtroom.

BeerIsGood wrote:Wow! Regarding the Founders issue...while I don’t generally like to get involved in these type of discussions on a beer page (it’s one of the reasons I come here), I will say this: judging companies and making purchasing decisions on moral/ethical grounds can be a very slippery slope. Own any Apple products? Checked their human rights/employment practices? Sure you know where your spouses diamond came from? Got any lithium batteries? 50% of the worlds cobalt comes from the DRC. Do you know what it’s like there for the citizens? Certain that Ontario produce wasn’t picked by exploited or blackmailed migrant workers? Check out a doc called Migrant Dreams if you doubt me. Feeling confident that the fish you just ate wasn’t caught using the very destructive techniques of Bottom Trawling or Explosion Fishing? How many animals died to test your cosmetics or shampoo? If you drilled down deep enough, IMO you wouldn’t buy much based on the moral judgment idea.

I was going to post a more detailed point-by-point reply to this but I think JerCraigs pretty much said everything that needs to be said. Yet I do so enjoy a good ramble.

Determining the origin of a beer is not difficult. If some aspect of its origin is distasteful to the consumer, then interchanging it with a different beer from a different company is easy.

Determining the origin of extracted resources such as rare earth metals is basically impossible (for a consumer) once they've been processed into secondary product (e.g. batteries or electronics, etc.). Even for stuff such as produce/fish/cosmetics, the origin may well be known, but no data concerning its harvesting/processing/manufacture is necessarily given to the consumer. Making an informed purchase in these cases is much more difficult, particularly because the companies that DO take part in the various shady practices you've listed have a vested interest in covering it up.

Until suddenly, it's not covered up. If an article about [insert tuna/shampoo/microchip manufacturer that I like] is printed in the future, with one of their employees claiming that there was a racist work environment, I would also stop buying from that brand until the smoke cleared and the situation became more clear. Yes, fired employees generally have an axe to grind, but (excuse my pettiness) companies are also often run by jerks and/or dicks. This can be true even of seemingly well-run companies, if not at the top then maybe somewhere in the middle mgmt. The fact that the guy is willing to go to court over this makes me think he believes he was mistreated and is in the right. That is too much effort to go through out of pure spite, especially in this environment where a media lens (and maybe even threats from unhinged internet folk) are a given.

And no, I don't have any Apple products. Overpriced junk doesn't interest me But seriously, Jobs was one of those (much more notable) Jerks behind a seemingly well-run company that I am talking about.

In the end, any argument based on whattaboutism is unsound because they all boil down to "you can't win, so don't even try." That's defeatist bullshit. You cannot use the tacit acceptance of one wrong to justify the continuation of another.

^^^

This just comes across as being too lazy to have real convictions. Either you want to support ethical companies or you do not care. This “bring it to my attention or it doesn’t exist” attitude is akin to “ignorance is bliss”. I’m betting your RSVPs are chalk full of unethical companies too, but hey that’s hard work, whereas reading an article about an alleged racial bias and avoiding a product on the shelf, that’s easy and makes you feel better. That’s not “whataboutism”, it’s having consistent principles. Either you try your best to find out how ethical every company you purchase from is, or you don’t really care. Let’s stop with the armchair righteousness.

"Don's Choice" by Innis & Gunn LCBO bound. it's a Black IPA with Rhubarb, Vanilla & Coconut.

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/innis- ... 8IiR_ZFyUk

you can watch how the beer was made here

Following on from the ethics discussion above:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchene ... -1.4856922

This is one of the Four Fathers owners. He's been charged with assaulting his ex-girlfriend.

Gedge wrote:Following on from the ethics discussion above:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchene ... -1.4856922

This is one of the Four Fathers owners. He's been charged with assaulting his ex-girlfriend.

So would people now choose not to buy Four Fathers because 1 of the 4 owners has been charged (not proven or convicted, mind you)? What about the 3 other owners that have nothing to do with this charge? And does your answer change if he is indeed proven guilty?

I just bought thier New World Pilsner yesterday, without knowing of the above charges, and will enjoy it (or not) just as much now as I would have not knowing.

MatttthewGeorge wrote:^^^

This just comes across as being too lazy to have real convictions. Either you want to support ethical companies or you do not care. This “bring it to my attention or it doesn’t exist” attitude is akin to “ignorance is bliss”. I’m betting your RSVPs are chalk full of unethical companies too, but hey that’s hard work, whereas reading an article about an alleged racial bias and avoiding a product on the shelf, that’s easy and makes you feel better. That’s not “whataboutism”, it’s having consistent principles. Either you try your best to find out how ethical every company you purchase from is, or you don’t really care. Let’s stop with the armchair righteousness.

Granted, but I think for some people it’s more specific than just ethical/non-ethical.

People might react more to blantant racism by actual people than, say, environmental destruction.

I think these types of things are often governed by what we perceive can be changed vs not.

For example a big Iocal issue is PartyCity and Spririt of Halloween selling those really racist indigenous costumes.

There’s a really easy fix for that if we put enough pressure on them. But I’m not a hypocrite if I also don’t go out west and protest pipelines.

darmokandjalad wrote:My mother's side of the family is from the Grand Rapids area. Based on my 32 years of experience with and interaction amongst the people who live there, the idea of casual racism being tolerated in the workplace is not even remotely difficult to take at face value. Michigan is basically Arkansas with lakes, plus Detroit and Ann Arbor.

If it turns out the ex-employee is just butthurt over getting canned/not getting a raise then fine, I'll look silly on the internet. That's a risk I'm willing to take. In the mean time, I don't owe the brewery the benefit of the doubt any more than I owe them my money in the first place. Because I'm not a judge and this isn't a courtroom.

That is unfortunate such backwards attitudes still exist in Grand Rapids.

Although does making a decision about Founders solve the greater problem of this commonplace, casual racism in Grand Rapids?

That's a pretty big problem to overlook as part of the discussion. Maybe everyone there (Founders included) is just not talking about this?