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General LCBO Debate & Discussion Thread

This forum is for discussing everything beer retail: LCBO, Beer Store, Grocery Stores and Indie Stores.

Moderators: Craig, Cass

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distr0
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Post by distr0 »

Kentucky bastard was absurdly cheap up until the last couple years. For a seasonal beer, 2 price increases in one season does seem a little sketchy though. If it was just this new price at release a few months ago I think it would feel a little more 'honest' ?

That said, I think it's straight up one of the best beers produced in Ontario, and this years in particular is just world-class great. I've bought 3 and kinda want more.

sofakingdrunk
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Post by sofakingdrunk »

spinrsx wrote:Was looking on the lcbo site for camerons RPA. Not much to be found, so I tweeted to camerons "@CameronsBrewing any plans to get RPA back to the lcbo? Perhaps in cans?"

their reply: "Hi there thanks for your question. RPA is a delicious award winning beer. We are not brewing that style at the moment. If you like hoppy beers have you tried the smoked ale or the dark lager from our new 4 pack?"

:-? odd hoppy beer suggestions..

I've always loved the RPA(when it was relatively fresh) there was a time that I thought it head and shoulders above any other readily available Ontario IPA. I feel once they dropped the bombers and went to only to 6packs and almost solely @ the beer store, that stock was always old. I think I bought two 6 packs from tbs but gave up after that......I haven't even seen it the last couple times I was in there. When I saw Cameron's rebranding and switching only to cans, I had hope that the RPA would be canned, as its really their only beer that would benefit from canning and maybe we'd start seeing fresh stock again. I guess you've given me my answer. It seems they're happy enough making quite a few very average beers instead of brewing their(by far)best one. I've never had either the smoked ale or dark lager...but I'd hardly consider those styles to be hoppy beers.

seangm
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Post by seangm »

sofakingdrunk wrote:
spinrsx wrote:Was looking on the lcbo site for camerons RPA. Not much to be found, so I tweeted to camerons "@CameronsBrewing any plans to get RPA back to the lcbo? Perhaps in cans?"

their reply: "Hi there thanks for your question. RPA is a delicious award winning beer. We are not brewing that style at the moment. If you like hoppy beers have you tried the smoked ale or the dark lager from our new 4 pack?"

:-? odd hoppy beer suggestions..

I've always loved the RPA(when it was relatively fresh) there was a time that I thought it head and shoulders above any other readily available Ontario IPA. I feel once they dropped the bombers and went to only to 6packs and almost solely @ the beer store, that stock was always old. I think I bought two 6 packs from tbs but gave up after that......I haven't even seen it the last couple times I was in there. When I saw Cameron's rebranding and switching only to cans, I had hope that the RPA would be canned, as its really their only beer that would benefit from canning and maybe we'd start seeing fresh stock again. I guess you've given me my answer. It seems they're happy enough making quite a few very average beers instead of brewing their(by far)best one. I've never had either the smoked ale or dark lager...but I'd hardly consider those styles to be hoppy beers.
I got a similarly canned response from them with the same inquiry:

"You are right.
RPA is an amazing and award-winning beer!!! Right now it is out of the brewing rotation.

BUT we have some amazing Brewmaster Selection beers that we are featuring. Have you tried Black Forest Dark Lager or Bamberg Castle Smoked Ale?

The Cameron's Team"

First of all, I didn't even mention its award-winning status in my original email lol... They had no clear answer to my question on whether or not it would return, just pushing the new mix pack in all their answers it seems. It's a shame, because when fresh it really was one of my favourite local beers.

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jp_jkl
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Post by jp_jkl »

On the subject of Kentucky Bastard, I would be far more willing to spend more $/per ml if the format was different. A 750ml bomber is just far too big, which has been mentioned before. I've been buying a ton of Ten Fidy... a) it's delicious and b) the smaller can format is perfect for that beer's ABV.

Kentucky Bastard has sat on the shelves for a few months in the last couple years. I'm sure this price increase will ensure it sits around a little longer this year.

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MatttthewGeorge
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Post by MatttthewGeorge »

We are looking at 500ml for next year, but I cannot say it that will indeed happen. But the general consensus around the brewery is that we need to be in a smaller format.

As for the second price increase on KB, the fact the beer is expensive and we reevaluated the costs and decided it had to go up. This is something that is going to happen with all our products going forward. The fact is the price on malts, hops, etc are constantly changing and the days of having a set price for a few years is coming to an end. As a sales rep I certainly don't like this fact, but I do need the brewery to make money in order to afford me(!) so in the end we all just have to realize it's the cost of doing business. I believe price adjustments are going to be happening much for frequently from everyone.

On top of all that, the brewery in Hamilton is actually costing us a lot more to produce the beer than originally anticipated. If you look at Collective's prices and ours, they're very similar, yet we have separate people figuring these things out. Obviously the bean counters from both breweries have come to the same conclusion. I envy Great Lakes and their $2.65 Canuck and wish we could produce Naughty at that price point. But we can't. We're not making $0.40 more than they are, rather I would wager the profit margin is roughly the same.

I get people are turned off by the price increases. I didn't say anything at first because people have the right to not like it, and to not buy it or stop buying it. It sucks, no question. I just don't like when conclusions are drawn that are untrue.
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darmokandjalad
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Post by darmokandjalad »

I don't understand how raising the price is supposed to benefit NB if the assumption is that the LCBO is just going to put it on clearance in the near future regardless.

If anything, it seems like bumping the price would only ensure that there will be more bottles left over to be sold at the clearance price. I mean, it was released 2 months ago and there are still like 7 and a half cases of this stuff at my local shop (closer to 12 cases a few days ago but I think there was a store transfer). How is bumping the price up another half-dollar going to help those bottles move, when all of the people who want to try it have probably already done so?

For the record, I don't think NB is trying to screw anyone. I just don't follow the thought process behind this move. If the beer is costing you more than you thought it did, then fine, whatever, raise the price on next year's batch. Increasing the price on stuff that is already clogging the shelves, though, seems silly at best, and arrogant at worst.

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MatttthewGeorge
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Post by MatttthewGeorge »

Fair point. Clearance pricing is no where near the main reason for the increase, however it does mean they're now taking the 20% off the higher price.

Again, wasn't a factor in the decision making, but it is a benefit and I pointed it out to demonstrate that price cuts will happen at some stores and we absorb those costs.
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portwood
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Post by portwood »

Sounds to me like some of the "craft" breweries are realizing:
- costs are higher than they planned
- they will need higher prices going forward to be viable businesses rather than just "hobby" brewers

Once they start to raise prices:
- there is only so much of a premium consumers will be willing to pay for "local" "craft" (esp with the increased choice of cheaper imports becoming available)
-unless they have built a "brand" with sufficient quality to justify the higher prices ...
- it will likely lead to consolidation and/or closure of those unable to sell at the higher prices they need to stay in business
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midlife crisis
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Post by midlife crisis »

Have you noticed the prices many craft breweries are now charging for bottles out of their own retail stores? I'm sure you have. $5 and $6 for a 500 ml. bottle not uncommon (and not just for barrel-aged stuff). I am keen to support many of the interesting new breweries that are seemingly popping up everywhere, and generally shell out for 3-4 bottles if I visit, but there's no way I could afford to buy their products consistently or in any kind of larger quantities. I get that rents are high, hops are getting expensive and all that, but it is tough when there are much cheaper alternatives readily available, as you point out.

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spinrsx
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Post by spinrsx »

Nicklebrook had already raised the price on the kentucky bastard in the fall as well.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Having the Boulevard 2014 Bourbon Barrel Quad, it is what it says and for ($14.30) it's incredibly, world-beating good. That's part of the problem I guess.
Last edited by Belgian on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In Beerum Veritas

portwood
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Post by portwood »

Boulevard BBQ $14.30
NB Old Kentucky Bastard $16.50

(I know these may not be exactly the same style of beer, but close enough to demonstrate the point)

I sympathize with NB's predicament re: costs of production BUT as a consumer, I say good luck, you're going to need it. That's what you have to deal with when our gov monopoly doesn't give a rats ass where the booze is made, all they care about is taxing the shyte out of it. Just ask the winemakers and spirits producers what they think about imports ;-)
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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

portwood wrote:That's what you have to deal with when our gov monopoly doesn't give a rats ass where the booze is made, all they care about is taxing the shyte out of it. Just ask the winemakers and spirits producers ...
Market forces. The governments pretend to respect them, but then they come in and do shite that upsets and stymies the markets.

Incidentally I love Nickel Brook and still I imagine if a Ontario brewer made BBQ it would be $20-25. And amazingly the word 'Boulevard' still doesn't even appear on the LazyBO website, so hope it sells. This is one of those by-the-oz, sip-and-savor brews that one feels almost guiltily pretentious about.
In Beerum Veritas

seangm
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Post by seangm »

portwood wrote:Sounds to me like some of the "craft" breweries are realizing:
- costs are higher than they planned
- they will need higher prices going forward to be viable businesses rather than just "hobby" brewers

Once they start to raise prices:
- there is only so much of a premium consumers will be willing to pay for "local" "craft" (esp with the increased choice of cheaper imports becoming available)
-unless they have built a "brand" with sufficient quality to justify the higher prices ...
- it will likely lead to consolidation and/or closure of those unable to sell at the higher prices they need to stay in business
This is a key factor here, the quality isn't there in a lot of cases. I'd say NB is meeting the quality play, but there are just so many breweries putting out overpriced bombers of mediocre beer that doesn't justify the price point. What's annoying is all the brewers out there doing the flavoured-this, barrel-aged-that and charging $10+ a bottle for a beer that just isn't very great. Strip away all the gimmicky flavourings and so many are very mediocre base beers; I'm starting to think it's just a way to cover up a lack of brewing ability and attempt to cash in on a "trend". As a beer lover I can't stand this "hip" "Craft Beer" trendiness that's diluting the greatness of beer.

It's hard for me to articulate, but it seems that people don't care about truly great beer, it's just a pissing contest now for who can have the trendiest, most hipster-approved branding.

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Craig
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Post by Craig »

portwood wrote:Boulevard BBQ $14.30
NB Old Kentucky Bastard $16.50

(I know these may not be exactly the same style of beer, but close enough to demonstrate the point)

I sympathize with NB's predicament re: costs of production BUT as a consumer, I say good luck, you're going to need it. That's what you have to deal with when our gov monopoly doesn't give a rats ass where the booze is made, all they care about is taxing the shyte out of it. Just ask the winemakers and spirits producers what they think about imports ;-)
I don't want to give the impression that I defend LCBO practices, but they do actually tax domestic craft, import and macro beers differently.

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