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General LCBO Debate & Discussion Thread

This forum is for discussing everything beer retail: LCBO, Beer Store, Grocery Stores and Indie Stores.

Moderators: Craig, Cass

mintjellie
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Post by mintjellie »

So when we talk about the "value" of the lcbo in terms of a pitiful selection of beers priced better than in the states, we're supposed to ignore the greater value of having the increased beer selection that could be provided by a private specialty retailer. Right?

Oh yeah, we get great value from the lcbo. :roll:

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

mintjellie wrote:So when we talk about the "value" of the lcbo in terms of a pitiful selection of beers priced better than in the states, we're supposed to ignore the greater value of having the increased beer selection that could be provided by a private specialty retailer. Right?

Oh yeah, we get great value from the lcbo. :roll:
Well let's not confuse the pricing of a given product with the general imbalance the LCBO system causes. Yes, some of what we can buy is cheap because of the bizarre lock the LC has on our whole province, but it is a perverse advantage and it's not everything. There IS 'value' in selection, as you say. It is a form of 'service' the consumer should expect.

Know what I was thinking about private retail yesterday, the Summerhill store kind of looks like what a decent store should in ANY moderate-size Ontario city. Yet it's almost the only one like it in Ontario. Wow - look at Premier Gourmet in Buffalo serving a much smaller city than Toronto, and one with far less economic prosperity.
SO many LCBO stores are a big puffed-up façade with big wide aisles of money-making plonk and little else. I'm not saying anything new here, but I'm shocked how I've gotten so used to it, gotten so accustomed to hunting down any wee scraps of good stuff the LC throws us once in a while.
In Beerum Veritas

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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

mintjellie wrote:So when we talk about the "value" of the lcbo in terms of a pitiful selection of beers priced better than in the states, we're supposed to ignore the greater value of having the increased beer selection that could be provided by a private specialty retailer. Right?

Oh yeah, we get great value from the lcbo. :roll:
You're mixing up two very different arguments. I've long been a proponent of a more open importation model for Ontario combined with a two tiered retail system. But until that happens (assuming it ever will) you should at the very least console yourself with the very reasonable prices the LCBO generally charges for the decent beer they DO bring in. It might not be EVERYTHING but at least it is SOMETHING.
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.

mintjellie
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Post by mintjellie »

Jon Walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote:So when we talk about the "value" of the lcbo in terms of a pitiful selection of beers priced better than in the states, we're supposed to ignore the greater value of having the increased beer selection that could be provided by a private specialty retailer. Right?

Oh yeah, we get great value from the lcbo. :roll:
You're mixing up two very different arguments. I've long been a proponent of a more open importation model for Ontario combined with a two tiered retail system. But until that happens (assuming it ever will) you should at the very least console yourself with the very reasonable prices the LCBO generally charges for the decent beer they DO bring in. It might not be EVERYTHING but at least it is SOMETHING.
It's barely something and almost nothing. We live in a beer wasteland. Why sugarcoat it?

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

jon walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote: you should at the very least console yourself with the very reasonable prices the LCBO generally charges for the decent beer they DO bring in. It might not be EVERYTHING but at least it is SOMETHING.
It's barely something and almost nothing. We live in a beer wasteland. Why sugarcoat it?
'Should console with' nothing.

Anything we save at the store we pay back double at the bar, thanks to draconian laws that prevent licensees from buying at wholesale prices. Only the LCBO is allowed to buy wholesale, anything else would be like competition. So the bars pass on the absurd retail-over-retail markup.
Last edited by Belgian on Wed May 18, 2011 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

mintjellie wrote: It's barely something and almost nothing. We live in a beer wasteland. Why sugarcoat it?
You want to see a beer wasteland, go to Newfoundland. One visit there and you'll look at things in Ontario very differently.

Look, it's glass half empty for a lot of you guys whereas I see it as glass half full. Things have already improved in Ontario considerably in the last decade. That process will continue...but Ontario likely won't ever be the U.S. in terms of its market model and that's something most of you simply can't fathom. Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).

I just find it ironic that the very same people who bitch that prices should be cheaper at the LCBO are also the same people who think we'd be better off without the LCBO. You do know those two desires are inversely related right?
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.

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Post by Kel Varnsen »

Jon Walker wrote: Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).
I am not even exactly sure how much better the Quebec system is compared to the Ontario system. I mean sure Quebec's interal system, with the number of breweries and the depaneurs is way better than how Ontario beers are sold. But every other way Quebec is at best the same, if not worse than what we have here. I think Ontario has it way better when it comes to imported beers, especially from the US and Europe. You can't get anything from breweries like Southern Tier or Brooklyn, and the only Rogue beer they have is dead guy.

And as much as people talk about how hard it is getting beer from other provinces in the LCBO, Quebec is even worse. There are way more Quebec Beers and the LCBO and Beer store than there are beers from Ontario at the SAQ. If you read the blog on they Beau's website they talk about how if they wanted to sell in quebec they would pretty much have to build another brewhouse on the quebec side of the border. The LCBO had that Dieu du Ciel feature last year. I am not sure I would expect to see a Mill Street feature in Quebec any time soon.

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Post by kwjd »

Jon Walker wrote:Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).
I don't think this is quite correct. The prices in Alberta are higher and the selection is better, so I agree on the facts. However, the former does not stem from the latter. The prices are higher there because the PC government raised taxes on beer really high. It is unrelated to whether the beer is sold in government or private stores.

mintjellie
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Post by mintjellie »

Jon Walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote: It's barely something and almost nothing. We live in a beer wasteland. Why sugarcoat it?
You want to see a beer wasteland, go to Newfoundland. One visit there and you'll look at things in Ontario very differently.

Look, it's glass half empty for a lot of you guys whereas I see it as glass half full. Things have already improved in Ontario considerably in the last decade. That process will continue...but Ontario likely won't ever be the U.S. in terms of its market model and that's something most of you simply can't fathom. Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).

I just find it ironic that the very same people who bitch that prices should be cheaper at the LCBO are also the same people who think we'd be better off without the LCBO. You do know those two desires are inversely related right?
But Ontario could at least be Alberta or British Columbia, right?

Also, I'm pretty sure that if tiny cities like Syracuse and Rochester can support specialty retailers like Beers of the World, Brilbecks, and The Party Source; or even supermarket selections like what you find at Wegmans, you can be damned sure the market in Toronto or London could support similar businesses. Bullshit we can't have a craft beer culture like the US.

Of course, we never will while we still have our government and foreign owned megabrewer duopoly in place. Half full? More like a tiny little mouthful of mostly backwash sitting at the bottom of a near empty glass.

Ontario sucks.

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SteelbackGuy
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Post by SteelbackGuy »

mintjellie wrote:
Jon Walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote: It's barely something and almost nothing. We live in a beer wasteland. Why sugarcoat it?
You want to see a beer wasteland, go to Newfoundland. One visit there and you'll look at things in Ontario very differently.

Look, it's glass half empty for a lot of you guys whereas I see it as glass half full. Things have already improved in Ontario considerably in the last decade. That process will continue...but Ontario likely won't ever be the U.S. in terms of its market model and that's something most of you simply can't fathom. Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).

I just find it ironic that the very same people who bitch that prices should be cheaper at the LCBO are also the same people who think we'd be better off without the LCBO. You do know those two desires are inversely related right?
But Ontario could at least be Alberta or British Columbia, right?

Also, I'm pretty sure that if tiny cities like Syracuse and Rochester can support specialty retailers like Beers of the World, Brilbecks, and The Party Source; or even supermarket selections like what you find at Wegmans, you can be damned sure the market in Toronto or London could support similar businesses. Bullshit we can't have a craft beer culture like the US.

Of course, we never will while we still have our government and foreign owned megabrewer duopoly in place. Half full? More like a tiny little mouthful of mostly backwash sitting at the bottom of a near empty glass.

Ontario sucks.

Move.
If you`re reading this, there`s a 15% chance you`ve got a significant drinking problem. Get it fixed, get recovered!

mintjellie
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Post by mintjellie »

As if a shitty beer scene is really a good reason to move away from a place I like for many other reasons, right?

I would just as soon stick around, and hope the good people of this province decide to abolish the lcbo eventually.

rejtable
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Post by rejtable »

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Jon Walker wrote: Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).
I am not even exactly sure how much better the Quebec system is compared to the Ontario system. I mean sure Quebec's interal system, with the number of breweries and the depaneurs is way better than how Ontario beers are sold. But every other way Quebec is at best the same, if not worse than what we have here. I think Ontario has it way better when it comes to imported beers, especially from the US and Europe. You can't get anything from breweries like Southern Tier or Brooklyn, and the only Rogue beer they have is dead guy.

And as much as people talk about how hard it is getting beer from other provinces in the LCBO, Quebec is even worse. There are way more Quebec Beers and the LCBO and Beer store than there are beers from Ontario at the SAQ. If you read the blog on they Beau's website they talk about how if they wanted to sell in quebec they would pretty much have to build another brewhouse on the quebec side of the border. The LCBO had that Dieu du Ciel feature last year. I am not sure I would expect to see a Mill Street feature in Quebec any time soon.
Based on my experience (and that of my friends and colleagues who I've talked to who live there), I'd say that what you've said above of the QC experience is true for the US beer, but for EU (especially Belgium), it's probably a wash at worst, and maybe a win for QC depending on your preferences.

The Québec model is just different. Not sure it's better or worse. Depends on what you want to achieve.

Yellow Fizzy macro beer is incredibly cheaper than there.
They clearly are out to promote their own industry, and it shows. The QC beer industry is miles ahead of ON in terms of diversity/innovation. Surely the retail mechanisms are a big part of that.
For imports, it's much like wine. They don't do a very good job of selling US stuff, but for Europe it's probably pretty close if not a slight win for the SAQ.

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Derek
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Post by Derek »

SteelbackGuy wrote: Move.
I did!

Seriously though... Ontario has some great brewers, they just need to brew more great stuff.

It's nice to walk into a BC Liquor store and see a variety of regular listings that I actually want to purchase (not just limited seasonal releases).

With the consumer's tastes evolving and craft beer sales continually increasing, there must be a local market, no?

Or could the market actually be too large? (Making it tougher for a small brewer to go from on-premise sales to provincial distribution)?

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JesseM
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Post by JesseM »

I've become really mild in my opinion of the LCBO. IMHO they're doing a decent job with the system in place. Not that I wouldn't want to see beer in grocery stores.

I'd be okay with the LCBO forever if it mean the end of the Beer Store, which I would declare a Jihad on if it didn't land me on a CSIS/CIA watchlist.

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Rob Creighton
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Post by Rob Creighton »

JesseM wrote:I would declare a Jihad on if it didn't land me on a CSIS/CIA watchlist.
I'm glad the young are skeptical - it bodes well

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