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General LCBO Debate & Discussion Thread

This forum is for discussing everything beer retail: LCBO, Beer Store, Grocery Stores and Indie Stores.

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SteelbackGuy
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Post by SteelbackGuy »

JesseM wrote:I've become really mild in my opinion of the LCBO. IMHO they're doing a decent job with the system in place. Not that I wouldn't want to see beer in grocery stores.

I'd be okay with the LCBO forever if it mean the end of the Beer Store, which I would declare a Jihad on if it didn't land me on a CSIS/CIA watchlist.
Yeah careful with that Jihad shit Jesse, some people don't like it for some reason. :)

But yeah a lot of people complain about the Lick bo. I work there yeah, but I've always been happy with the system and even when I quite my job there (probably in a year or so now) I will still be ok with what is going on here.

Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Wildfires, and Political Strife is killing people everywhere and some folks complain about beer here like they lost a limb.
If you`re reading this, there`s a 15% chance you`ve got a significant drinking problem. Get it fixed, get recovered!

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Some days you just have to count your limbs, as Len always used to say.

Really, it's fine to be glib about how general life is pretty good in Ontario - we have no idea HOW good really. So part of this discussion is about how much better it potentially (obviously, excruciatingly) could be beer-wise. We have the obvious economic prosperity, and the market is there to support great beer far better than Buffalo. So what gives? Maybe the LC will slowly get the picture & yield to the demand giving us more of the good stuff we've been seeing. They are used to running a streamlined profit machine, but they also like to dabble in some rare and fine beverages as well.

And yes SAQ does suck. What useless stores for the most part.
In Beerum Veritas

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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

kwjd wrote:
Jon Walker wrote:Even markets in this country with arguably better setups (Quebec, Alberta, B.C.) all have certain trade offs for greater beer access (most specifically price).
I don't think this is quite correct. The prices in Alberta are higher and the selection is better, so I agree on the facts. However, the former does not stem from the latter. The prices are higher there because the PC government raised taxes on beer really high. It is unrelated to whether the beer is sold in government or private stores.
And what do you think would happen in Ontario if there was no LCBO creating profit for the provincial coffers? Wait for it...they'd raise taxes on booze. So, like it or not, one is related to the other.

Here's details from a CamH report to substantiate that;
"The other Canadian example comes from Alberta, where retail alcohol outlets were privatised between the fall of 1993 and spring of 1994, generating a number of changes, including increased density of outlets, longer hours of sale and higher prices, particularly among the more popular brands (Consumers' Association of Canada, 2003). The change in retail prices is one effect of privatisation also found in other jurisdictions (Her et al., 1999a). In the short run, prices generally go up, although this typically does not generate more revenue for the government. "
http://www.camh.net/Public_policy/Publi ... dereg.html
Last edited by Jon Walker on Thu May 19, 2011 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

mintjellie wrote: But Ontario could at least be Alberta or British Columbia, right?
It would...and you would likely have better selection and higher prices.
Pick your poison.
mintjellie wrote: Also, I'm pretty sure that if tiny cities like Syracuse and Rochester can support specialty retailers like Beers of the World, Brilbecks, and The Party Source; or even supermarket selections like what you find at Wegmans, you can be damned sure the market in Toronto or London could support similar businesses. Bullshit we can't have a craft beer culture like the US.
Well then your crusade doesn't end with bringing down the LCBO, The Beer Store and the domination of the big brewers. You'll also have to re-write federal trade and tariff law, NAFTA, all the Federal regulations regarding shipping, labelling, handling under the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations and the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act and Regulations and you'll have to rewrite health and safety policy, overthrow several very well entrenched unions and basically eliminate the dissent of the alcohol regulation lobby.

Good luck with that. It might be easier to apply for your green card and move south.

Bottom line, you can't have the U.S. model in Ontario because Ontario isn't the U.S. The best you can hope for is a two-tiered system that works with and through the LCBO and manages to break the monopoly on beer sales currently held by TBS. But the cost of that will be higher prices. So again, don't complain about what you have until you truly understand what the reality of the other option is.
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.

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SteelbackGuy
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Post by SteelbackGuy »

Jon Walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote: But Ontario could at least be Alberta or British Columbia, right?
It would...and you would likely have better selection and higher prices.
Pick your poison.
mintjellie wrote: Also, I'm pretty sure that if tiny cities like Syracuse and Rochester can support specialty retailers like Beers of the World, Brilbecks, and The Party Source; or even supermarket selections like what you find at Wegmans, you can be damned sure the market in Toronto or London could support similar businesses. Bullshit we can't have a craft beer culture like the US.
Well then your crusade doesn't end with bringing down the LCBO, The Beer Store and the domination of the big brewers. You'll also have to re-write federal trade and tariff law, NAFTA, all the Federal regulations regarding shipping, labelling, handling under the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations and the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act and Regulations and you'll have to rewrite health and safety policy, overthrow several very well entrenched unions and basically eliminate the dissent of the alcohol regulation lobby.

Good luck with that. It might be easier to apply for your green card and move south.

Bottom line, you can't have the U.S. model in Ontario because Ontario isn't the U.S. The best you can hope for is a two-tiered system that works with and through the LCBO and manages to break the monopoly on beer sales currently held by TBS. But the cost of that will be higher prices. So again, don't complain about what you have until you truly understand what the reality of the other option is.

Slam dunk! Well said!
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shintriad
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Post by shintriad »

I'll accept a two-tiered system, Jon. We already have a multi-tiered system, far as I'm concerned. The LCBO doesn't run bars and breweries, for instance. We already have agency stores in some towns, which distribute vodka rations under the auspices of the LCBO. So there's no reason to think we can't support boutique stores running alongside the 'Bo.

You've brought up higher prices a couple of times, but obviously some people are willing to pay a bit more if they're driving to Buffalo once a month. There aren't too many PBR drinkers here....

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SteelbackGuy
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Post by SteelbackGuy »

shintriad wrote:I'll accept a two-tiered system, Jon. We already have a multi-tiered system, far as I'm concerned. The LCBO doesn't run bars and breweries, for instance. We already have agency stores in some towns, which distribute vodka rations under the auspices of the LCBO. So there's no reason to think we can't support boutique stores running alongside the 'Bo.

You've brought up higher prices a couple of times, but obviously some people are willing to pay a bit more if they're driving to Buffalo once a month. There aren't too many PBR drinkers here....

I'm curious about what percentage of Ontario beer drinkers you think are "driving to buffalo" once a month?
If you`re reading this, there`s a 15% chance you`ve got a significant drinking problem. Get it fixed, get recovered!

mintjellie
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Post by mintjellie »

SteelbackGuy wrote:
Jon Walker wrote:
mintjellie wrote: But Ontario could at least be Alberta or British Columbia, right?
It would...and you would likely have better selection and higher prices.
Pick your poison.
mintjellie wrote: Also, I'm pretty sure that if tiny cities like Syracuse and Rochester can support specialty retailers like Beers of the World, Brilbecks, and The Party Source; or even supermarket selections like what you find at Wegmans, you can be damned sure the market in Toronto or London could support similar businesses. Bullshit we can't have a craft beer culture like the US.
Well then your crusade doesn't end with bringing down the LCBO, The Beer Store and the domination of the big brewers. You'll also have to re-write federal trade and tariff law, NAFTA, all the Federal regulations regarding shipping, labelling, handling under the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations and the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act and Regulations and you'll have to rewrite health and safety policy, overthrow several very well entrenched unions and basically eliminate the dissent of the alcohol regulation lobby.

Good luck with that. It might be easier to apply for your green card and move south.

Bottom line, you can't have the U.S. model in Ontario because Ontario isn't the U.S. The best you can hope for is a two-tiered system that works with and through the LCBO and manages to break the monopoly on beer sales currently held by TBS. But the cost of that will be higher prices. So again, don't complain about what you have until you truly understand what the reality of the other option is.

Slam dunk! Well said!
Please, show me where I said Ontario needed to follow the US regulatory system. I didn't say that anywhere. I did say a craft beer culture like the US, but that doesn't necessarily speak of the regulatory system.

I'm pretty sure I already said higher prices and better selection is my preferred poison, btw.

As for health and safety, labelling, unions, etc - Alberta has already done it and gotten better selection for it, right? BC has already partially done it, right? So what exactly is stopping it here in Ontario?

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Post by Weebay »

I would happily pay Alberta prices for the better selection. I am in Edmonton and Calgary a few times a year and their prices aren't that far off what you see in Ontario as it is. For things like Scotch the price is infact lower.

I love living in Ontario for a myraid of reasons, but that doesn't mean I can't be unhappy with how our alcohol distribution model works and with the selection I'm provided. Being passionate about craft beer, it's frustrating that when I stop at a gas station in rural Montana I'm presented with a better selection of beer than the province can muster up.

And for the record I drive to Illinois/Indiana at least four times a year to buy beer.

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Post by Jon Walker »

mintjellie wrote: Please, show me where I said Ontario needed to follow the US regulatory system. I didn't say that anywhere. I did say a craft beer culture like the US, but that doesn't necessarily speak of the regulatory system.
Exactly my point! But let me clarify. The general slant of your comments seemed to suggest that;
1) Better beer selection and cheaper beer prices are more widely available in the U.S. notably in neighboring states like NY and MI.
2) We could and should have similarly good selection and cheap prices here in Ontario.
3) The LCBO, TBS and big brewers are mostly responsible for preventing this.
4) Changing 3) will make 2) a reality.

Is that a fair summary of your argument? If so it's utopian and facile to suggest this can occur without taking into account all of the factors I raised for you.
mintjellie wrote: I'm pretty sure I already said higher prices and better selection is my preferred poison, btw.
Good. At least you acknowledge the two are inescapably linked.
mintjellie wrote: As for health and safety, labelling, unions, etc - Alberta has already done it and gotten better selection for it, right? BC has already partially done it, right? So what exactly is stopping it here in Ontario?
I'm not particularly well versed on the situation in Alberta beyond what I've read in the report I quoted earlier in this thread. However I'm well acquainted with the B.C. situation. The changes that have occurred here have happened fairly slowly (beginning in earnest around expo 86, more than 25 years ago). But the vital component that kicked it all off and allowed several stepping stones in the years that followed was;

1) Political will to change the system.
2) Less entrenched unions with a weaker bargaining agreement.
3) No beer store monopoly run by foreign owned, powerful corporations.
4) A smaller and less bureaucratic provincial liquor corp.
5) A less powerful lobby against deregulation.

How many of those factors are at play currently in Ontario? Again, not only is Ontario not the U.S., it ain't B.C. either. Your mountain is even steeper to climb.

Having said all that let me point something out to the newer posters in this thread. I've been around Bartowel since it started, almost a decade, and I have a well documented frustration with the Ontario system and a strong desire to see it change. But wishing it to change and realizing the reality of MAKING change is a step many of you have yet to take. It's akin to saying you're frustrated you can't play in the NHL because you already own cool skates and love the game so very, very much. There's a BIG gulf being overlooked there between desire and reality.

So here are the legitimate ways to make the system change (forgive me if some of these seem obvious to some of you);

1) Support local micros that make beer you want to drink. Change begins locally.
2) Support local beer establishments that sell good beer.
3) Support the LCBO's seasonal program by buying the good beers and validating their decision to bring them in.
4) Support local events that endorse and supply quality beer (Volo's various festivals, cask ale festivals, Project X days etc...)
5) Support organizations, like Free Our Beer, CASK, CAMRA and others that are already fighting the good fight to change the situation in Ontario
6) Write your local M.P.P., or talk to them in person, and make salient points to encourage them to support legislative change.
7) Encourage friends and family to drink better beer.
8) and last, and probably hardest of all, resist buying beer in the U.S.

If you truly want Ontario to change THAT is what is needed. Bitching here about wanting it to happen and wondering why it can't magically be different today will achieve absolutely nothing.

Cheers!
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shintriad
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Post by shintriad »

SteelbackGuy wrote:I'm curious about what percentage of Ontario beer drinkers you think are "driving to buffalo" once a month?
I was talking about some of the posters on this forum, specifically. They're the type of people who will accept slightly higher prices in some cases, and an extreme subgroup of craft beer drinkers in general.

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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

And one last note. For those of you thinking we have a bottled beer utopia out here in B.C. (which compared to Ontario we do) there are still reasons to complain. See if any of the issues presented in today's Georgia Straight article ring any bells for you;
http://www.straight.com/article-393232/ ... page=0%2C0
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Post by The_Jester »

A well written, well organized, and thorough synopsis and assessment. I wish most of my students could put together arguments like this. (Maybe I've gotta get 'em writing about beer.) I understand and concur with pretty much everything. There is just one point that I don't understand.
Jon Walker wrote:...2) Less entrenched unions with a weaker bargaining agreement....
I'm not trying to start a fight over it. Forgive my ignorance, but I just can't see how this fits in.
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Jon Walker
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Post by Jon Walker »

Unionized labour is a major component of why it's problematic to overthrow a government monopoly like the LCBO. I believe the union that represented the BC Liquor workers (B.C. Government and Service Employees' Union (BCGEU/NUPGE) brokered an accord in 2006 with their government bosses allowing them to trim the fat (doing away with 20% of their corporate stores) and allowing private retail with non union labour as long as they protected most of the existing union jobs and committed to keeping many BC Liquor stores open. The then Liberal government under Campbell were considering dismantling the entire corporation and were in a power situation to dictate terms to the labour union who did their best to resist and protect their existing workforce. So effectively the two tiered system came to fruition due to strong political will and a weaker union.

The LCBO union in Ontario is much bigger, has more members (roughly 7000), is more powerful and, I believe, affiliated with an even bigger parent (big brother) union that strengthens their hand (Ontario Public Service Employees Union). You may recall that the LCBO union very nearly went on strike in 2009 and the key issue was the potential switch of some full time benefit laden jobs to casual part time (but still union wage) jobs. They held their ground and got just about every demand they asked for. Furthermore the Beer Store workers are represented by a different and equally powerful union backed by a bigger parent (United Food & Commercial Workers Local 12R24 (UFCW)) so you couldn't break up that labour monopoly without routing that union as well.

So it's a vastly more complicated situation to tackle in Ontario...the unions there do not want a two tiered system and will fight hard to keep it from happening.
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Post by The_Jester »

Makes sense. Thanks, Jon.
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