Toronto Life: "Why the LCBO has to go"

[atomeyes]

yes! now you need Josh Rubin at the Star to do another story and hopefully there will be a push to open the market up.

http://www.torontolife.com/daily/inform ... ol-freaks/

too much goodness to quote.

[Derek]

That is a good piece.

You'd still have the provincial markup, though it's not half as bad as BC (see page 6):
http://cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm- ... -6-eng.pdf

I like this bit:

Monopolies are so last century. To understand the absurdity of state-controlled liquor sales, imagine if Queen’s Park decided obesity was the number one health risk and established an Obesity Control Board of Ontario. It shuts down McDonald’s, Burger King and Wendy’s. Only the OCBO can supply burgers because, you know, children might eat them. Without competition, the price of a meal deal soon doubles, then triples. With these—forgive me—fat profit margins, the OCBO begins decorating its burger outlets with crystal chandeliers. It publishes a glossy fast-food magazine. And everyone lives happily ever after because the province is raking in millions of dollars in dividends.

Though with the rising cost of health care, this actually sort of makes sense (reduce obesity and tax the people that cost the system the most)!

[atomeyes]

The question is: why would the government reliquish their control? why would they allow private stores to open? what's in it for them?

anyone know why Alberta decided to open things up?

[Kel Varnsen]

The question is: why would the government reliquish their control? why would they allow private stores to open? what's in it for them?

anyone know why Alberta decided to open things up?

I think what it would come down to is pure numbers. Yes the LCBO makes X billions in profit each year for the province on top of what ever they take in in taxes. But they also have very high operating costs. If you make liquor stores private, yes the government loses the profit they make but more stores selling booze make could potentially mean more sales, which in turn could yield more governement revenue through taxes (especially since they eliminate those high operating costs). Especially when you factor in that the government would sell liquor sales licences plus the fact that they might sell of some of those prime real estate locations.

[Stroonze]

Excellent piece, thanks for posting.

[Derek]

The question is: why would the government reliquish their control? why would they allow private stores to open? what's in it for them?

The politics of booze is a bit dicey. Personally, I think the temperance groups create a bias that does not actually reflect the general population. But I feel we are slowly evolving.

Political cycles are relatively short... and in this time of deficits, it might actually be the prime time to sell off some of these assets to help balance the books. I think the majority of the public might prefer that over other budget cuts (health care, education, infrastructure...).

Either way, the government will still rake in a lot of taxes.

[cratez]

It's a decent piece that touches on some good points (price gouging, onerous requirements for listings, why most monopolies don't work) but they should've mentioned B.C. and Nova Scotia's "mixed" models as those are what Ontarians would likely opt for over a completely privatized system.

With a few exceptions we're a province that prefers safe, middle-of-the-road policies that provide stability or at least the perception of it, and the governments we elect tend to reflect that preference. Alberta's system was implemented by an ideologically right-wing government; the closest we've come to that scenario is the Harris Conservatives and they backed off privatization. The author doesn't touch on these political realities.

The article could've also focused more on the massive differences in selection between the very best LCBOs (Summerhill, Queen's Quay) and nearby state liquor stores and private outlets in B.C. and Nova Scotia. Obviously they thought the Alberta comparison would suffice.

That being said it's still good to see more commentators beating the drum and enlightening folks on the types of systems that exist. Most people don't even know that another retail model is possible.

[rejtable]

If you were just looking to drink a beer purchased at retail on a random day of the year, would you be better off in Toronto or Halifax? I have no doubt that the people who can frequent Summerhill do better than Haligonians over a long period, and especially for those of us who chase specific releases, but on "any given Sunday" so to speak, would Summerhill actually really be any better than walking into Premier in Halifax?

I'm not sure the answre to my question matters all that much in the big picture, but I'm curious. I have benefited from some tremendously tasty beer via the LCBO, and surely my selection over course of a year is better than any of my friends in Halifax, but if I had to stock up for a beer-nerd party tonight, I think I'd do better in Halifax than at Summerhill, no?

It would sure cost me an arm and a leg for my party, that's one downside to the NS model for sure.

[cratez]

I have benefited from some tremendously tasty beer via the LCBO, and surely my selection over course of a year is better than any of my friends in Halifax, but if I had to stock up for a beer-nerd party tonight, I think I'd do better in Halifax than at Summerhill, no? It would sure cost me an arm and a leg for my party, that's one downside to the NS model for sure.

Bearing in mind that the entire province of Nova Scotia (922,000) is smaller than the Ottawa metropolitan area (1.2 million), population would play an obvious role in driving demand and partially determining the types of niche products that would be available under a mixed system in Ontario. Assuming the private stores could order whatever they like, we could probably support a Premier in every mid-sized city and multiple shops in Toronto and Ottawa.

Regarding your second point: if you're suggesting that home drinking is mostly about value and quantity (i.e. 6 packs) and tastings are more focused on expensive bombers, I see plenty of both on Premier's website. The sixers seem to range from downright cheap (Propeller IPA @ $10.75) to pricey but well worth it (Aphrodite @ $16).

[rejtable]

Bearing in mind that the entire province of Nova Scotia (922,000) is smaller than the Ottawa metropolitan area (1.2 million), population would play an obvious role in driving demand and partially determining the types of niche products that would be available under a mixed system in Ontario. Assuming the private stores could order whatever they like, we could probably support a Premier in every mid-sized city and multiple shops in Toronto and Ottawa.

Oh yeah I realize that. All I meant to do was wonder and toss out the question and discussion point about whether those Bluenosers are just as well off on any given day as folks who can frequent Ontario's two best LCBO.

For those of us who are heavilly engaged in the beer experience, I think the range of seasonals/features and one-offs from the LCBO surpass the availibility of what folks in Halifax can get, but most people, even those who enjoy good tasting beer, aren't as engaged as the folks who post here.

So, if you are just Johnny Q Public in Halifax, or Jonathan Q Public in Toronto walking into a store to buy beer out of the blue, who does better on any random day?

Regarding your second point: if you're suggesting that home drinking is mostly about value and quantity (i.e. 6 packs) and tastings are more focused on expensive bombers, I see plenty of both on Premier's website. The sixers seem to range from downright cheap (Propeller IPA @ $10.75) to pricey but well worth it (Aphrodite @ $16).

No, sorry, all I meant was that Premier is, overall, pretty expensive. Yeah, sure they are sourcing Propeller reasonably cheap, but other than the local stuff, Premier is quite expensive overall in my experience. Wasn't suggesting anything specific about home vs tasting/party.

[Brewbert]

Ya the liquor system in ontario is a fricken joke. I'm glad I'm out. I'm so closed to the washington border here in BC I drive across once a month on a beer run and get all them good hoppy ales from the states for 9 bucks a 6 pack. Until this countries view on liquor is fixed, that's what I'm doing.

Hope the LCBO is abolished by the time I get back to Ontario.

[atomeyes]

Ya the liquor system in ontario is a fricken joke. I'm glad I'm out. I'm so closed to the washington border here in BC I drive across once a month on a beer run and get all them good hoppy ales from the states for 9 bucks a 6 pack. Until this countries view on liquor is fixed, that's what I'm doing.

Hope the LCBO is abolished by the time I get back to Ontario.

good luck. i tweeted Premier Dufus McShylock about the article and ended up trading tweets with some liberal yes-man. his tweets back will sadden you.

Media Office ‏ @LibPressSec
@mrsharpphoto While I love a good Lambic as much as the next guy - you should speak w/ your local LCBO manager - can often order. #Ontario

i replied saying that he was incorrect (used Cantillon as an example) and that we deserve freedom of choice and need to open this monopoly up. the reply?

Media Office ‏ @LibPressSec
@mrsharpphoto #Ontario has taken many steps to relax liquor laws since '03. No plans to change LCBO model.

unless there's a huge public outcry (and in Ontario, we cry about nothing) then things will remain the same.

[Kel Varnsen]

Ya the liquor system in ontario is a fricken joke. I'm glad I'm out. I'm so closed to the washington border here in BC I drive across once a month on a beer run and get all them good hoppy ales from the states for 9 bucks a 6 pack. Until this countries view on liquor is fixed, that's what I'm doing.

Hope the LCBO is abolished by the time I get back to Ontario.

good luck. i tweeted Premier Dufus McShylock about the article and ended up trading tweets with some liberal yes-man. his tweets back will sadden you.

Media Office ‏ @LibPressSec
@mrsharpphoto While I love a good Lambic as much as the next guy - you should speak w/ your local LCBO manager - can often order. #Ontario

i replied saying that he was incorrect (used Cantillon as an example) and that we deserve freedom of choice and need to open this monopoly up. the reply?

Media Office ‏ @LibPressSec
@mrsharpphoto #Ontario has taken many steps to relax liquor laws since '03. No plans to change LCBO model.

unless there's a huge public outcry (and in Ontario, we cry about nothing) then things will remain the same.

The sad thing is even if they didn't want to abolish the LCBO some minor changes to laws could really open things up for businesses. I mean my understanding is that it is already legal for people to take home bottles of wine from bars and restaurants that are unfinished. How hard would it be to just extend this law to allow for over the bar beer sales? I mean for example in Ottawa, Pub Italia sells a bunch of bottled beer that isn't available in the LCBO. If they want to sell me a bottle of Rochefort to take home (for less than they sell it for in the bar) why shouldn't they be allowed to do that (especially if I could potentially take home a bottle of wine that I had one sip out of)? If that kind of thing was allowed it would give brewers (and bars) a whole other way to make money and give consumers a whole bunch more options

[Derek]

(and in Ontario, we cry about nothing)

Was that sarcasm? There's a lot of people that whine, but unfortunately very few take any action.

[icemachine]

(and in Ontario, we cry about nothing)

Was that sarcasm? There's a lot of people that whine, but unfortunately very few take any action.

I say we get Quebec students in on it and organize a Day of Rage