freeourbeer.ca is presenting a petition to Queens Park 2mrw

saints_gambit · Post by **saints_gambit** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:03 pm

I've been thinking about the problem and the issue here is that this move is essentially political suicide for whoever does it. Think about all the potential repercussions. Unproven revenue streams at the cost of proven. Unions. Multinational companies. If crime increases, it's your fault. If impaired driving increases it gets blamed on you. We already know that best case 40% of the population is against it.

There's a 0% chance that you get out of this unscathed. There's no moral imperative to do it. There's not a lot of economic research that says it's a good idea.

Kel Varnsen · Post by **Kel Varnsen** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:31 pm

saints_gambit wrote: If crime increases, it's your fault. If impaired driving increases it gets blamed on you. We already know that best case 40% of the population is against it.

That is probably a big one. Especially since the people who would be most pissed off about that sort of thing would be old people, especially if they read stories in their newspapers about how underaged drinking and public drunkenness is on the rise. And those are the people who vote in force.

JerCraigs · Post by **JerCraigs** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:44 pm

rejtable wrote:Was just looking at the NAFTA text. I don't see any relevant text about beer anywhere.

Summary here:
http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-ag ... spx?view=d

It is not alcohol or beer specific. The rules are for any kind of "investment", so basically any kind of rule about alcohol sales that would advantage/disadvantage one company over another becomes an issue.

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:12 am

Remember when I said this?

GregClow wrote:My point is that while I personally would LOVE to see some big changes to the beer retail system in Ontario, I question whether or not a lot of the craft breweries would want it. Especially now that the OCB has become so cozy with the LCBO. If the current system makes it equally easy for them to sell their beer in Toronto, Timmins and Tobermory, I suspect that a lot of them would be happy to stick with it.

Well, apparently I wasn't far off the mark:

http://torontoist.com/2012/08/craft-bre ... eer-sales/

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:30 pm

GregClow wrote:Remember when I said this?

GregClow wrote:My point is that while I personally would LOVE to see some big changes to the beer retail system in Ontario, I question whether or not a lot of the craft breweries would want it. Especially now that the OCB has become so cozy with the LCBO. If the current system makes it equally easy for them to sell their beer in Toronto, Timmins and Tobermory, I suspect that a lot of them would be happy to stick with it.
Well, apparently I wasn't far off the mark:

http://torontoist.com/2012/08/craft-bre ... eer-sales/

I don't really understand why it's being formulated as an either/or situation. Why wouldn't the LCBO want to continue trying to make money off selling good beer?

If the industry became strong and vibrant enough that it no longer required or wanted the LCBO involvement, that's one thing, but if the current structure works for both parties, I don't see why Macs selling CLIT and maybe some specific bottle shops opening would mean that structure has to disappear completely or even mostly.

I can see a worry that someone like Sam Adams or Unibroue or whatever ends up in Gas stations so that displaces some OCB sales in the LCBO, but meh, that's a problem I'd personally not sweat about.

Bytowner · Post by **Bytowner** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:06 pm

rejtable wrote:If the industry became strong and vibrant enough that it no longer required or wanted the LCBO involvement, that's one thing, but if the current structure works for both parties, I don't see why Macs selling CLIT and maybe some specific bottle shops opening would mean that structure has to disappear completely or even mostly.

Why would it work for both parties? A corner store doesn't care if the beer geek is being served, why should they? If nobody is offering good beer then most people will have no choice but to buy bad beer. If corner stores were able to serve beer you better believe they would start lobbying against state interference in their newfound market.

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:30 pm

Bytowner wrote: Why would it work for both parties? A corner store doesn't care if the beer geek is being served, why should they? If nobody is offering good beer then most people will have no choice but to buy bad beer. If corner stores were able to serve beer you better believe they would start lobbying against state interference in their newfound market.

So, you are saying that it'd be a slippery slope thing? First corner stores sell CLIT, then they rant and rave until the LCBO stops selling Black Oak?

Bytowner · Post by **Bytowner** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:42 pm

rejtable wrote:
Bytowner wrote: Why would it work for both parties? A corner store doesn't care if the beer geek is being served, why should they? If nobody is offering good beer then most people will have no choice but to buy bad beer. If corner stores were able to serve beer you better believe they would start lobbying against state interference in their newfound market.
So, you are saying that it'd be a slippery slope thing? First corner stores sell CLIT, then they rant and rave until the LCBO stops selling Black Oak?

I'd say so, and I don't think they'd be wrong too, but the end result would make us worse off. I could be wrong, I don't know if that has or hasn't happened in, say, BC. However, if I were a shop owner that just got a fancy new beer vendor license and there was a LCBO/BS a couple blocks over with about 1 000 000 times my buying power, I wouldn't be pleased about it.

cmadd · Post by **cmadd** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:45 pm

I think Bill Coleman from Cameron's summed up my feelings nicely.

“It would be competitive, but the good micros will survive.”

Works for me.

Bytowner · Post by **Bytowner** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:12 pm

cmadd wrote:I think Bill Coleman from Cameron's summed up my feelings nicely.

“It would be competitive, but the good micros will survive.”

Works for me.

Some good micros would survive. Quality would matter a lot less than marketing and location.

atomeyes · Post by **atomeyes** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Bytowner wrote:
rejtable wrote:If the industry became strong and vibrant enough that it no longer required or wanted the LCBO involvement, that's one thing, but if the current structure works for both parties, I don't see why Macs selling CLIT and maybe some specific bottle shops opening would mean that structure has to disappear completely or even mostly.
Why would it work for both parties? A corner store doesn't care if the beer geek is being served, why should they? If nobody is offering good beer then most people will have no choice but to buy bad beer. If corner stores were able to serve beer you better believe they would start lobbying against state interference in their newfound market.

Leslieville Pumps.

you have a higher end bbq joint that opened in Leslieville, selling very good food. at a gas station.
not toquiterias or whatever that shit is at 7-11. smoked brisket, pulled pork.
why?
because its a business model.

Bytowner · Post by **Bytowner** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:26 pm

atomeyes wrote: Leslieville Pumps.

you have a higher end bbq joint that opened in Leslieville, selling very good food. at a gas station.
not toquiterias or whatever that shit is at 7-11. smoked brisket, pulled pork.
why?
because its a business model.

I don't have a clue what your point is. Please read my post again.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:31 am

GregClow wrote:
atomeyes wrote:Licks was the prevalent burger in Toronto 15 years ago. consumers want good food/drink. Licks has died.
Really? I'd hardly consider a chain with 22 locations - including 5 in Toronto - to be dead: http://www.lickshomeburgers.com/index.php/find-us

And yeah, sure, Burgers Priest is opening a 3rd location. And there are a few other decent burger places that have opened over the last few years. But the "gourmet" burger chain seeing the most growth lately is Hero, and aside from the fact that they use hormone & antibiotic free beef, their product is garbage. Pre-fab burgers that are just one step up from Harvey's. And they're selling like crazy.

Licks has gone in the past 15 years from good, honest food to dogshit. They sold out the 'real fresh-made' ethic so that they could sell frozen hockey pucks at Sobeys. Screw Licks.

Hero are utterly disgusting, overpriced garbage consumed by retarded apes. Screw Hero Burger.

And it makes a good point that people aren't more aware, they don't know real food and real beer - in fact our mentally-delayed simian friends are happy to pay $15 for a Hero Burger Combo. I guess we still have long way to go.

cratez · Post by **cratez** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:07 pm

cmadd wrote: I think Bill Coleman from Cameron's summed up my feelings nicely.

“It would be competitive, but the good micros will survive.”

Works for me.

+1

xocoatl · Post by **xocoatl** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:00 pm

I am wondering if they did allow sales at corner stores, how they would limit who could sell. What would stop someone from opening a small store to just sell craft beer? would there be some criteria to keep that from happening?

And would that allow said store to order products that are not listed by the LCBO (private orders, consignment, specials and one-off products from small breweries)?

While the mac's and 7-11 type stores will likely stock only the big macro brands, I could see a few smaller places doing well if they can start selling products not at the LCBO/beer store, with a variety of products changing regularly and with more ease then the LCBO listings.