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Rodenbach Grand Cru

Contribute your own beer reviews and ratings of beers that are made or available in Ontario.

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GregClow
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Post by GregClow »

I had my first bottle of this tonight and loved it. Really interesting and unique. I can see how some people might be turned off by the tartness, but I had no complaints.

dhurtubise
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Post by dhurtubise »

Long post (sorry)

This might seem a little harsh and cruel but I encourage everyone who did not like his first bottle to open another soon and try it again.

While in Belgium, almost every fan of the traditional lambics (big sour ones) that I met told me the following:

The first traditional labic that you have, you absolutely hate it. The massive sourness of the beer just overwhelms your entire palate and lets practically nothing else through. You struggle through every sip to get the beer down, and swear you will never again have another (something along those lines). Then, the second one is OK. But just OK. There are a lot of flavors that still put you off but you can start to appreciate some of the beers undertones and especially the sourness that once was so overwhelming. All of the others afterwards are exquisite.

This was very much my experience.

My first trad lambic was Girardin Kriek and I remember struggling through the entire experience, knowing that it was world-renowned and that all of the ratebeer geeks loved it. I finished the drink with the impression that I was not the connoisseur I believed myself to be as I could not appreciate any of its qualities. I remember thinking that it tasted like harsh wood resins (like sucking on a sapling) and vomit and that although it was called a kriek, there were no traces of cherries anywhere.

My second was Cantillon Gueuze, sampled 4 days later, halfway into my beer pilgrimage to Belgium. Although I still found the experience to be harsh (especially the beer), by the bottom of the bottle I had really started appreciating it despite it being overrun by wood resins, and some flavours again, reminiscent of vomit. I remember actually feeling up to another right after, though I had none to satisfy that desire.

After that, there were no more bad experiences: they were all lovely from that point on. I actually made my way back to Bruxel for the last 3 days of my trip so that I could more fully explore the sour beers as the majority of these beers originate from the the Senne Valley (where Lambics are made).

When the Cantillon products came this summer, I warned a lot of you that it would probably not be an easy beer to appreciate at first. I was actually really surprised when some of you reviewed it as if it were nectar after your first sampling. I was definitely expecting more of a reaction like the one we are seeing at the top of this thread, as this is the typical one for almost all of these mouth-puckering beers.

Remember also that these beers are definitely more suited for summer despite the fact that the LCBO is releasing it in the winter/fall. The sour character combined with a very light body (though not richness of flavour) is exceedingly thirst quenching. So much so that Michael Jackson has immortalized the Rodenbach Alexander (the Grand Cru's little defunct sister) by claiming that it is the most refreshing beer in the world. The other sour beers, (the oud bruins, the lambics and the sour red ales of Belgium, and the berliner weiss of Germany) are as worthy of this distinction. If I could only drink one style of beer the rest of my life, I would certainly chose one of these.

As a conclusion I truly encourage all of those who couldn't appreciate these beers after the first bottle (and you must go through the first bottle - tulapev you're unfortunately still on your first as no drain pouring is allowed) to have another. Take your time and do not judge it too quickly. Just view whatever unpleasant experiences you might encounter as as the necessary trials to discover the nirvana of the malt, hops and yeast dimension. I can almost guarantee you that you will thank me in the end.

PS: i understand that the Grand Cru is not a lambic. I merely compared it in this thread, as it is it's closest relative based purely on the strength of the acidity.

Enjoy your sour beers while you can - governement guidelines in Europe and North America are constantly on the edge of banning them due to the microflora (bacteria) used to derive them.

Daniel

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joey_capps
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Post by joey_capps »

I agree with dhurtubise on this on. I didn't really enjoy my first experience drinking a real lambic either.

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tupalev
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Post by tupalev »

Ok, just to clear up where I'm coming from. I've rated 3 Flemish sour ales, which is what the Grand Cru is according to ratebeer. I really liked the Verhaeghe Duchesse De Bourgogne and enjoyed, but to a lesser extent, the Liefmans Goudenband. See my ratings here:

http://www.ratebeer.com/ViewRatingsBySt ... 52&Count=3

I've also tried a couple of the Cantillon's, really enjoying the Rose De Gambrinus, and to a lesser extend, the FouFoune (although I thought it was starting to edge into the "too sour" territory that the Rose stayed away from). So a first time "sour" experience is not the issue. My problem with the Grand Cru is that it was all sour and not much else. I loved the way it looked and enjoyed the aroma, but the sourness, or tartness, of the taste overwhelmed, leaving no room for other flavours to emerge. The reason I liked the Duchesse so much is because every sip seemed to reveal a new flavour, or a hint of something I didn't detect before. The Grand Cru just does not make this possible. All in my humble opinion of course.

Since I've paid for it, and everyone I know has tried the beer already or bought it, I'll likely be stuck with the Grand Cru, so I will try it again, if only because I don't like to see my hard earned money go to waste. But unless a beer was obviously skunked, or it was my first introduction to a style, I would not want to try again and experience the same disgusting reaction I had to this beer ever again. Same goes if it was a well reviewed plate at a fancy restaurant - I wouldn't go back to try it again because I 'didn't get it"; I would trust my instinctive tastebuds and move on to something else. And that's what great about beer - there are so many styles, you don't have to like all of them to appreciate good beer. So I hope everyone can find one of two of this winter release that really makes you sit back and say "That's a great beer". I've found a couple, so I'm happy.

Jeff

dhurtubise
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Post by dhurtubise »

Goudenband is a flemish brown ales or Oud Bruin depending on which appelation you chose to use. Rodenbach and Duchesse de bourgogne are both flemish red ales. The grand cru is definitely a very sour example of the style but it is not as sour as either Rose de Gambrinus or even Foufoune which come from Cantillon.

The goudenband and the Duchesse are both relatively tame beers compared with the Grand Cru. I am quite convinced that if you like the beers you have mentioned in your post that you could learn to love the Grand Cru since it is not that much of a jump. However, argue for you limitations and they are yours to keep. No one else will ever win that argument.

old faithful
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Post by old faithful »

I consider I have an adventurous beer palate but 30 years of sampling have not convinced me of the merits of the intensely sour beers. They are a regional taste (like scrumpy cider is n parts of England) and from a social and historical point of view I find them interesting but I find it hard to come to terms with them in their most purist form. I must say too, I have never been sure in my own mind that these beers are as sour in Belgium as here, i.e., I have always wondered if transport to far away locations tends to make them more sour. I have had some Goudenband that was lightly tart (vinous) and very drinkable and some that was bracingly acid, so vinegar-like so as to make me wonder if it went off. There is a difference between vinous and sour.. I like some gueuze, the unflavoured one of Mort Subite is very good, and I have never found Cantillon's particularly sour. But it must be said, assuming Rodenbach and Foufone taste here as intended by the brewers, that they are a local taste which many devoted beer fans find it hard to come to terms with. A light skein of acidity in beer can lend complexity. The Fuller London Porter has a faint background of this and I like it (it is a hallmark of traditional porter), but more than that tends in general to put me off. Everyone has their own taste in such matters, though.

Gary

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Post by Andicus »

Pardon my bewilderment Gary, but you find Rodenbach Grand Cru to be more sour than Cantillon Gueuze? :o

dhurtubise
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Post by dhurtubise »

Andicus wrote:Pardon my bewilderment Gary, but you find Rodenbach Grand Cru to be more sour than Cantillon Gueuze? :o
This perfectly echoes my sentiments.

I can understand the view point of someone who just doesn't like sour beers (or just miniscule amounts as Old F. stated above) since we all have diferent sensitivities do various flavours. However, it bewilders me that someone could complain about the acidity in the Rodenbach grand cru (and drain pour :o) while at the same time appreciate another that is quite a bit more sour in my opinion (Cantillon).

I for one will taste oxydation at much lower levels than almost anyone and a beer that is even mildly flawed in this manner will turn me off rather quickly. At the same time, my drinking buddies won't even detect the cardboard flavours associated with it. On the other hand, you pretty much have to hit me over the head with a hammer with diacetyl (common in english ale - reminiscent of butter).

I spoke to one of the revered members of this board about phenolics (high concentrations in belgian ales and weissbier). He couldn't stomach any amount in the beers he consumes wheras many of us seek it out.

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tupalev
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Post by tupalev »

However, it bewilders me that someone could complain about the acidity in the Rodenbach grand cru (and drain pour ) while at the same time appreciate another that is quite a bit more sour in my opinion (Cantillon).

Guys, enough. It is personal taste. No one has come on and said "I don't like Grand Cru, so don't drink it". Everyone who has disliked it has said "in my opinion" or something to that effect. So why continue to go on about the same thing over and over? You like the beer, fantastic. You are very knowledgeable about these types of beer, great. You have presented an intelligent counter point as to why these beers are so good and it is appreciated. But now you're coming across as belittling anyone who dares not like it, for whatever reason. This "snob" attitude always gets my back up, and that is exactly how you're coming across IN MY OPINION (just to be clear). So I think I'll personally move on.

I've really enjoyed the conversation generated about this beer.

Jeff

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Post by Andicus »

There is certainly no snobbery in my question... Just curiosity. IMHO, Cantillon Gueuze is quite a bit more sour than RGC, so it surprised me to see someone suggest the opposite.

Cheers,

Andrew

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joey_capps
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Post by joey_capps »

Why do you all hate America? Opps, sorry wrong forum.

Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Joe.

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Post by Steve Beaumont »

Inetersting discussion, folks, and I might well add, one in which I have not detected any snobbery or condescension.

To add a little context to the idea of 'sour' beers and their relative intensity, allow me to offer a little historical background. Lambics which are tart (I prefer that term to 'sour,' as to me it conotes an appetizing dryness as well as a flavourful 'snap'), such as the Cantillons, are that way because of an intentional exposure to airborne microflora. As such, they necessarily vary from batch to batch and the consistency which we find in the better ones, like Cantillon and Drie Fonteinen, comes as a result of expert blending of barrels, in much the same way that Scottish whisky distillers achieve consistency in their blended products.

The red and brown ales of northern Flanders, like Rodenbach, Liefmans and the Duchesse, get their tartness from the bacteria resident in the barrels in which they are aged. Thus the breweries who make them can control their intensities by limiting the amount of time they spend in the wood, or sometimes through the addition of sugar to the fully fermented and aged beer. (Admittedly, the former is also true of lambics, as anyone who has tasted a relatively mild young lambic will attest, but the point is that the critters inhabiting the wood are of less significance in a lambic than they are in a red or brown.)

When Rodenbach was announced as coming to Ontario this past summer, I started crossing my fingers because this beer had experienced a definite downward spiral following its acquisition by Palm. I was heartened, however, by news from Tim Webb that it was on its way back to its former glory, and the case which I bought last week confirms that point. At the same time, Liefmans Goudenband, while still an enjoyable beer, is in my estimation several levels below where it once was prior to being purchased by Riva, while conversely the Duchesse is better than ever and, again in my estimation, now more tart though less complex than Rodenbach. (And on this subject, Gary, if you have ever had a truly vinegary Goudenband, it is most certainly because the beer has gone off and not because that was the intention. Even at its most sour, that beer was never vinegary.)

Finally, based on years spent explaining different beers to different people, it has been my experience that the key to enjoying tart beers, be they reds or browns -- arguably the same animals -- or lambics, is to get your palate past the tartness to the layers of complexity lingering beyond. The ability to do this would certainly explain how someone would find the less complex Rodenbach more off-putting that a tremendously complex Cantillon. That and the fact that the two beers boast different kinds of tartness, for which any given palate might have significantly different sensitivity.

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Post by old faithful »

Thanks, Steve, for these excellent thoughts. In fact, the gents who earlier questioned why I would like Cantillon Gueuze more than Rodenbach were right - it wasn't Cantillon I meant, it was Mort Subite's Gueuze. I find the latter has enough dashes of sweetness to be enjoyable, whereas the Cantillon Gueuze falls into the challenging class for me. I do know what you mean by persisting with these drinks, though. I have tried this successfully with scrumpy cider in England and certain very dry white wines of the Loire, and after a while you "get" the dryness, I know what you mean. But usually I buy the very tart Belgians by the bottle, and also, after not having had them for a long time, and it is hard to get past that very bracing acidity on that basis. Still, I will try, and I suspect the Cantillon beers (actually I have enjoyed the framboise one) and Rodenbach would go well with certain Belgian dishes, maybe that coq a la biere at beerbistro I've heard great things about lately!

Gary
Last edited by old faithful on Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tupalev
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Post by tupalev »

Sorry guys, bad day at work, and that reply came off way more snippy than necessary now that I re-read it. You may continue your "sour" discussion with my apologies if I offended. I think I just need a beer....

Jeff

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JerCraigs
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Post by JerCraigs »

joey_capps wrote:Why do you all hate America? Opps, sorry wrong forum.
Laughing My Ass Off.

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