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Skeena Wolfgang's German Style

Contribute your own beer reviews and ratings of beers that are made or available in Ontario.

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JesseM
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Skeena Wolfgang's German Style

Post by JesseM »

Nothing new to most here on the bar towel, but I'm having it for the first time.

It's actually not that bad, in fact decently tasty. I had a good feeling about this one. I knew that the low ratings on ratebeer are probably mostly due to the frustration from some over the abundance of lagers in the OCB market.

It has that earthy-barley, boiling mash/wort flavour and aroma going on which I tend to absolutely love in my lagers. It seems more akin to a Munich Helles/Dortmunder to me. My sample though, unfortunately, does not seem to be all that fresh. Dust on the box, and tiny but noticeable floaties when held to the light. Very little hop activity for something listed as a pilsener. It reminds me of Gold Crown's lagers a little, and I'm quite fond of those.

Maybe they reformulated?

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Post by velovampire »

I haven't had this one in any incarnation, but I believe it used to be brewed by Northern (before the banckruptcy)? Ratebeer currently lists it as being brewed by Cool, so the brewery switch may have had something to do with quality change....?

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Post by Belgian »

Cool seems to be something of a generic / "clone draught beer" facility.

St. Andre was an independent - and very tasty - brew when it first came out. Cool makes it now, and I have to say it's merely competent.
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velovampire
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Post by velovampire »

Belgian wrote:St. Andre was an independent - and very tasty - brew when it first came out. Cool makes it now, and I have to say it's merely competent.
I have to agree. I recall loving St. Andre (never understood why all the beers are listed as "Ste." Andre on RB) 5 or 6 years ago, but lately, while still very drinkable, it seems to have lost much of what made me love it before. I'm blaming Cool. The incongruity of Doug Pengelly's Citroen truck being loaded up with 6-packs by busty, tight-shirted reformed Hooters employees is too much to bear....not that that actually happens (I think), but still....

Something sours inside me when I'm at the 'BO and see St. Andre 6 packs nestled in fours inside a cardboard Cool tray. Same feeling I get when I see the packs of Creemore in a Molson tray. Sad, really...

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Post by JerCraigs »

velovampire wrote: 5 or 6 years ago, but lately, while still very drinkable, it seems to have lost much of what made me love it before. I'm blaming Cool. .... Something sours inside me when I'm at the 'BO and see St. Andre 6 packs nestled in fours inside a cardboard Cool tray. Same feeling I get when I see the packs of Creemore in a Molson tray. Sad, really...

Not that I am a big fan of Cool's regular product range, and I can't speak for Doug's arrangement with Cool, but I think you need to be careful when saying things like this. Many of Ontarios talented brewers opt to use the facilities of other breweries. (Denison's, Perry Mason etc.)
There are any number of reasons the beer may have changed, or maybe your tastes have as well. Anyways, point being if Doug, Michael Hancock, or Perry Mason comes out with a new brew, I care a lot more about whats in the bottle than where it was brewed/packaged etc.

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Post by trub_man »

Hello, my name is Jamie Mistry and I am the brewmaster at Cool Beer Brewing Company. From time to time, I visit this forum to read up on all the new gossip.

First of all we are not a “Clone Draft Beer Facility”. I will admit we brew both St. Andre and Wolfgang's and both are there own recipes that are dictated by their respective brand owners.
I adhere to Doug's recipe any changes have to come from him. So, if you are not happy with how the beer tastes now, please complain to the owner not the brewer. The owner's email - standre@sympatico.ca.

I know I will never win a golden tap award as my beers are not to bartoweler's liking, but I guarantee consistency and quality in any product that leaves my plant.

Cool Beer and Millennium Buzz - it is what it is, please attempt to be more open minded when judging less complex styles.

Bartoweler’s sometime tend to pollute their judgment because there is a domestic brewer behind a specific brand. FYI I am good friends with the brewers at Creemore and from their own mouths Molson may own them but they do not run them. Are you sure the beer tastes different, or are you judging the beer knowing Molson owns them.

Give credit were credit is deserved, as much as brewing is a craft it is also a science. If not for Coor’s, AB and Inbev (to name a few) how do you think your favorite beer would taste today.

Cheers, Jamie

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Post by Derek »

The final product depends on so many variables.

For example, the amount of filtering really changed the John By, which was actually the same recipe as the Tsarina. All were a little different.

While a tighter filter can remove protein haze & improve shelf-life, it definitely removes some of the bitterness (thus changing the balance). That's not always a bad thing though... I actually like the first John By most!

Anyway, I'd argue that if you change the process, you SHOULD change the recipe. And yes, that should be up to the owner.

FWIW, I think the old Creemore's seem a little sweeter now. I'd like a little more crisp bitterness. That said, perhaps my palate has changed as well.

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Post by velovampire »

JerCraigs wrote:Many of Ontarios talented brewers opt to use the facilities of other breweries. (Denison's, Perry Mason etc.)
There are any number of reasons the beer may have changed, or maybe your tastes have as well. Anyways, point being if Doug, Michael Hancock, or Perry Mason comes out with a new brew, I care a lot more about whats in the bottle than where it was brewed/packaged etc.
I completely agree - when a brewer changes facilities (not even "upsizing", often merely a lateral shift will do it) there is bound to be some change, for better or worse. As both you and Derek noted, there are a huge amount of variables that go into making a beer, and many of those change with the production facility. Case in point is Perry's Church-Key vs Heritage renditions of the Sarge. Both have their fans, but it is generally accepted that the CK version was superior. I, too, will happily give ANYTHING by Doug, Michael or Perry a try, as I think they all do a superb job at their craft. I guess what I was trying to say before was that, personally, although a product may or may not change, it is always a bit saddening to me when contract breweries upsize or are bought out. With that, seemingly more often than not, there is - however slight - a diminishment in quality.
I still buy Creemore and Saint Andre, certainly - they are very good beers, but I'd still prefer not to have any of my money lining Molson executives' pockets.

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Post by JesseM »

velovampire wrote: I still buy Creemore and Saint Andre, certainly - they are very good beers, but I'd still prefer not to have any of my money lining Molson executives' pockets.
This relates to the only thing that gives me comfort from being burned by TBS. The fact that yes the money spent goes to support MolBatt, but, at the same time supports the smaller guy like Cool Brewing. And, maybe, in a perfect world, the cashier was impressed by seeing something being bought that they most likely haven't seen in a while, which would be representative of TBS seeing that products like St. Andre do, at least eventually, get bought.

It's just a shame that they didn't care enough to get rid of expired products and ensure their customers top quality :evil: . I really do love St. Andre :cry: .

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Post by Belgian »

Yeah I know we can affect some real elitism here on BarTowel, and we sometimes need to keep perspective. But so-called "Cool Beer" did not influence my impression of St. Andre. The last six-pack of SA seemed to me just bland, and I was desperately looking for the appeal I was rather fond of in this beer back when I used to compare it to some of the finer Quebec micro lagers (eg. the Belle Guelle I enjoyed there in the Nineties.) Anyway that's one guy's opinion and I'm no brewer - I just love beer & would really like to re-try a good pint of SA next time I see it on the draught slate.

Also I do try to dig in and appreciate the so-called 'less compex" ("lager?") spectrum of things - such as the fun German "fest" beers they put on tap at BeerBistro. Those are essentially 'macro' beers made for a broad market appeal, and they are also fine, enjoyable beers with a place in my heart.
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Post by Jon Walker »

trub_man wrote:Hello, my name is Jamie Mistry and I am the brewmaster at Cool Beer Brewing Company. From time to time, I visit this forum to read up on all the new gossip.

First of all we are not a “Clone Draft Beer Facility”. I will admit we brew both St. Andre and Wolfgang's and both are there own recipes that are dictated by their respective brand owners.
I adhere to Doug's recipe any changes have to come from him. So, if you are not happy with how the beer tastes now, please complain to the owner not the brewer. The owner's email - standre@sympatico.ca.

I know I will never win a golden tap award as my beers are not to bartoweler's liking, but I guarantee consistency and quality in any product that leaves my plant.

Cool Beer and Millennium Buzz - it is what it is, please attempt to be more open minded when judging less complex styles.

Bartoweler’s sometime tend to pollute their judgment because there is a domestic brewer behind a specific brand. FYI I am good friends with the brewers at Creemore and from their own mouths Molson may own them but they do not run them. Are you sure the beer tastes different, or are you judging the beer knowing Molson owns them.

Give credit were credit is deserved, as much as brewing is a craft it is also a science. If not for Coor’s, AB and Inbev (to name a few) how do you think your favorite beer would taste today.

Cheers, Jamie
Hi Jamie,

First off, thanks for posting here. I'm always happy to see brewers, bar owners, distributors and related industry folks open up a healthy and positive dialogue with us BT'ers. While it might be easy to dismiss our collective opinions as those of beers snobs or elitists I honestly think that would be an over simplification since our genuine desire is to support quality beer in this province. Do we have an issue with macro brewers and big corporations like the LCBO and TBS? Certainly...and there are some very genuine reasons to feel aggrieved. But I'd like to address a few of your points and see what you have to say in response.

1) The "blame the owner" point you made overlooks some fundamental issues. Whenever a brewer (or owner) switches facilities there are always variables that can affect the overall taste, and potentially the quality, of a beer. Many here noticed a change in the consistency of the Scotch Irish beers both when they were being made at Church Key and then when Heritage took them over. That turned out to be no fantasy on our parts...Perry himself noted there had been some things that, despite his recipes being adhered to, were changing the beers adversely. It's still a point of contention whether the beers have ever truly returned to form since the change in ownership...but I digress. The point being, new facility, new brewer can mean different end result.

2) Your beers aren't generally to the average BTer's liking...but that actually has less to do with the style than with the quality within the style. I've had some decent hemp based ales (Bowen Island, Mill Street and Storm to name but three Canadian ones) and while they aren't my favorite style of beers I recognize they are well made and tasty for what they are. The Buzz doesn't compare favourably to these three let alone some other hemp beers from the U.S. As for the Cool Lager...I'm sorry but it just isn't good within it's style. Take a page from your friends at Creemore who, despite the change in ownership, are still making a vastly better lager than you. Same goes for Grand River's Galt Knife and King's Dark Lager...just vastly better beers.

Now I don't begrudge you for going after the macro market by making what we might call "safe" beers but that doesn't mean you can't improve the quality of them and appeal to both the mainstream and the beer connoisseur. Our open mindedness actually allows many of us to give credit where credit is due when a brewer, in any style of beer, turns a poor or mediocre effort into a standout. Aim for that and you'll get the reaction here that you seem to think isn't possible.

3) Your best comment of all was the one where you asked what our favourite beer today might taste like if it weren't for AB, Coors and Inbev...Am I the only one who found that funny? Since I love room temperature, cask conditioned ale (like they've made in the UK for centuries) I'd suspect my beer taste has been almost entirely unaffected by those three mega conglomerates. While I recognize their influence on the marketing, distribution and monopolization of the beer brewing industry any scientific or production "innovation" they've come up with has really nothing to do with the style or quality of beer I enjoy. Perhaps you'd like to qualify that comment a little since, right now, it seems completely off the mark.

Look, my comments are not meant as an attack. I appreciate that you are trying to make a buck producing beer for a market you feel is the right one for you. It's a tough and challenging job and my hat is off to you. You don't have to make an Imperial oak aged stout to gain both my respect and support as a consumer (though that would be nice). I'd just love to see Cool simply improve the quality of the beer it produces WITHIN the style it already attempts.

Cheers,
JW
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.

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Post by Duffey »

trub_man wrote:I know I will never win a golden tap award as my beers are not to bartoweler's liking, but I guarantee consistency and quality in any product that leaves my plant.
Do you think of your brewery as a factory? It should be regarded as a brewhouse, not a plant. Consistency is important, but how about uniqueness? There's nothing Cool about 'me too' beer.

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Post by Belgian »

Well Jamie has already admitted he just does what he does, very acceptable large-scale brewing, so stop accosting him & if you like you can vote with your taste buds - lots of smaller Ontario brewers offer great beer. I personally like to keep an eye on both ends of the commercial spectrum.

Also it's already obvious to this community the notion of 'same recipe' means zippo when you swtich to a different facility, equipment, etc - the people and mentality changes, possibly even the raw materials supplier, the water etc. This is all "preaching to the choir" and we already know yelling at the original brewer of St Andre won't change a thing, so in good spirits we should smile & let it bounce.
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Post by Jon Walker »

Belgian wrote:Well Jamie has already admitted he just does what he does, very acceptable large-scale brewing, so stop accosting him & if you like you can vote with your taste buds - lots of smaller Ontario brewers offer great beer. I personally like to keep an eye on both ends of the commercial spectrum.

Also it's already obvious to this community the notion of 'same recipe' means zippo when you swtich to a different facility, equipment, etc - the people and mentality changes, possibly even the raw materials supplier, the water etc. This is all "preaching to the choir" and we already know yelling at the original brewer of St Andre won't change a thing, so in good spirits we should smile & let it bounce.
I hardly think replying to Jamie about his own comments is accosting him. For those who may have forgotten this is a forum...people post their thoughts, others reply. As long as it's civil and relevant what's wrong with that? As far as preaching to the choir...WE might all know that a new facility can affect a beer but apparently Jamie doesn't share that conclusion.
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Post by JerCraigs »

Belgian wrote:Well Jamie has already admitted he just does what he does, very acceptable large-scale brewing, so stop accosting him & if you like you can vote with your taste buds - lots of smaller Ontario brewers offer great beer. I personally like to keep an eye on both ends of the commercial spectrum.

Also it's already obvious to this community the notion of 'same recipe' means zippo when you swtich to a different facility, equipment, etc - the people and mentality changes, possibly even the raw materials supplier, the water etc. This is all "preaching to the choir" and we already know yelling at the original brewer of St Andre won't change a thing, so in good spirits we should smile & let it bounce.
Jon was far from accosting Jamie, though he might have been a bit rough in his bluntness.

Jamie stuck his neck out by posting his take on the situation (which is appreciated btw), and Jon responded.
but as I'm sure Jamie knows, and he even alluded to - the majority of Bartowelers are not Cool Beer's target market. I'm sure neither Jamie nor Cool are losing any sleep over that. They have been around for a while, and clearly know how to run their business.

The nature of the internets is that threads like these border on "argumentative", or at least debate. For every thread praising the likes of Denison's, Mill Street, Black Oak or one of the other better brewers of Ontario, there seems to be a thread going on about how Industrial Bland Macro Brew is tasting just great lately. Or how one of the more mainstream micro brands is now on tap, or is a textbook example of a mildly flavoured lager.

Thats great - different people have different tastes, but when we have threads were guys have to come out and ask "So is Steelback actually worth picking up?" it speaks to the fact that maybe we haven't made ourselves clear as to where things stand. If I am a newbie coming on here I want to read " Cool's stuff is competently brewed but taste wise is not a big leap from the more mainstream lagers available." not some ambiguously worded description that tells me nothing about the taste, quality, or whether not I should spend my money on it. If we get pissy every time someone posts something thats a little bit critical we lose that clarity, and an important element of the site in my opinion.

I don't need "Ontario's Premier Beer Resource" to discover the variations on the theme of fizzy yellow domestic lagers - they are easy enough to find - but if not for Bartowel I might never have figured out that Hey, Denison's Weiss is pretty awesome, or that Black Oak Pale Ale has a truckload more flavour than Keith's. I want more "I appreciate good beer" and less "I drink beer!" - am I the only one?

I'm probably beating a dead horse here... I'll stop talking now.

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