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Random Reviews

Contribute your own beer reviews and ratings of beers that are made or available in Ontario.

Moderators: Craig, Cass

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

G.M. Gillman wrote: Side Launch Mountain Lager: I'm telling you guys this is one amazing lager. I only seem to find it at Pilot in cans. When it warms a bit, it has a complex sweetness that reminds me of Urquell but the hop side is more typically German (with no sulfury lager yeast taste as many of these have).

Gary
ya lost me.
most pilsners are crisp. even the shitty Canadian ones have a crisp finish. i don't recall having one Urquel where I'd use the term "sweetness" in its taste. i even went to Beeradvocate to re-read reviews to make sure i'm not wrong and i see "crisp" as a common description for the finish. crisp always tends to mean "dry".
you're not perceiving the slight buttery finish (diacetyl) with sweetness?

AugustusRex
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Post by AugustusRex »

atomeyes wrote:
G.M. Gillman wrote: Side Launch Mountain Lager: I'm telling you guys this is one amazing lager. I only seem to find it at Pilot in cans. When it warms a bit, it has a complex sweetness that reminds me of Urquell but the hop side is more typically German (with no sulfury lager yeast taste as many of these have).

Gary
ya lost me.
most pilsners are crisp. even the shitty Canadian ones have a crisp finish. i don't recall having one Urquel where I'd use the term "sweetness" in its taste. i even went to Beeradvocate to re-read reviews to make sure i'm not wrong and i see "crisp" as a common description for the finish. crisp always tends to mean "dry".
you're not perceiving the slight buttery finish (diacetyl) with sweetness?
If I remember correctly, from the brewing information I have seen, Urquell has a significant amount of residual sugar.

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

AugustusRex wrote:
atomeyes wrote:
G.M. Gillman wrote: Side Launch Mountain Lager: I'm telling you guys this is one amazing lager. I only seem to find it at Pilot in cans. When it warms a bit, it has a complex sweetness that reminds me of Urquell but the hop side is more typically German (with no sulfury lager yeast taste as many of these have).

Gary
ya lost me.
most pilsners are crisp. even the shitty Canadian ones have a crisp finish. i don't recall having one Urquel where I'd use the term "sweetness" in its taste. i even went to Beeradvocate to re-read reviews to make sure i'm not wrong and i see "crisp" as a common description for the finish. crisp always tends to mean "dry".
you're not perceiving the slight buttery finish (diacetyl) with sweetness?
If I remember correctly, from the brewing information I have seen, Urquell has a significant amount of residual sugar.
a basic pilsner recipe is simple. usually around 90ish % pilsner malt, and 5-8% cara-pils or something that is not fermentable (for body and head retention). mash temp will result in residual sugars, but we're not talking about quad-esque residuals. it won't be saison bone dry but it will be a typical, normally-fermented beer that will have a non-significant amount of residual sugars.

i've googled a few clones to back up what i'm saying. most have a final gravity above 1.010 (to the mid-teens). again, a normallish FG.

i haven't had a regular Urquell in years. had the unfiltered on tap a year ago and i don't recall much sweetness.

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boney
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Post by boney »

Interesting topic. Not a home brewer or a judge, so I may have a less rounded opinion than some, but I find Urquell and most Czech Pils to have a light but noticable bready or doughy sweetness. I spent 10 days in the Czech Republic this summer and drank a ton of regular, tank and unfiltered Urquell as well as any other Czech Pils I could find. Many of the pils I had were also brewed for slightly higher final gravity than typical North American lagers or German Pils and they definitely weren't dry. Sweetness was indeed more pronounced in most as the beer warmed, as well.

Not that Ratebeer or Beeradvocate are super reliable style guides, but Beeradvocate says a Czech Pils has a a clean malty base, while Ratebeer says they have a fat maltiness, so there appears to be a little wiggle room in the definition. It could also just be slight differences in perception in terms of how sweet people find Czech Pils. Regardless, it is an underrepresented style in Ontario and I will seek out any examples that pop up.

ercousin
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Post by ercousin »

Diacetyl is very common in Czech Pilsners (Bohemian Pils by BJCP), and definitely comes across as sweetness. Many people like the taste of diacetyl and it does work in certain beers sometimes. I usually can't stand it but that is a personal thing.

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style02.php
GTA Brews - Toronto's Homebrew Club - http://www.gtabrews.ca/

Eric's Brewing Blog - Advanced Homebrewing for the Intermediate Brewer - http://www.ericbrews.com/

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

boney wrote:Interesting topic. Not a home brewer or a judge, so I may have a less rounded opinion than some, but I find Urquell and most Czech Pils to have a light but noticable bready or doughy sweetness. I spent 10 days in the Czech Republic this summer and drank a ton of regular, tank and unfiltered Urquell as well as any other Czech Pils I could find. Many of the pils I had were also brewed for slightly higher final gravity than typical North American lagers or German Pils and they definitely weren't dry. Sweetness was indeed more pronounced in most as the beer warmed, as well.

Not that Ratebeer or Beeradvocate are super reliable style guides, but Beeradvocate says a Czech Pils has a a clean malty base, while Ratebeer says they have a fat maltiness, so there appears to be a little wiggle room in the definition. It could also just be slight differences in perception in terms of how sweet people find Czech Pils. Regardless, it is an underrepresented style in Ontario and I will seek out any examples that pop up.
doughy or malty is different than sweet. there may be Munich malt used in small amounts to get a malty flavour.

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boney
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Post by boney »

Yeah, low level diacetyl may be acceptible for the style, but isn't neccessary. I'm super aware of diacetyl and personally consider it a defect in any style, so definitely not the sweetness I'm talking about.

Carbohyrates are carbohydrates. All malt has a certain amount of sweetness, it's just not sugary or saccharine. If not sweet then what? Sour? Salty? Bitter? Umami?

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

boney wrote:Yeah, low level diacetyl may be acceptible for the style, but isn't neccessary. I'm super aware of diacetyl and personally consider it a defect in any style, so definitely not the sweetness I'm talking about.

Carbohyrates are carbohydrates. All malt has a certain amount of sweetness, it's just not sugary or saccharine. If not sweet then what? Sour? Salty? Bitter? Umami?
to be honest, i think a hint of diacetyl in a lager, esp with the Urquel strain of yeast, is nice. when i say hint, i mean only enough to compliment the floral notes of the yeast. so on a scale of 1 to 10, i'm talking a 1.5.

carbs are carbs, but not all are equal. lactose is a carbohydrate that saccharomyces cannot break down into alcohol or CO2. same with maltodextrin. some carbs are more complex than others.

there are 3 basic parts to brewing that determine how much unfermented sugar will remain: mash water temp, types of malts used, and the type of yeast used. it's my understanding that lagers are usually mashed on the high end of the spectrum in order to have some mouthfeel and leave some unfermentable sugars. that would be on the same temperate end as, for example, stouts, where you want that mouthfeel and some residual sweetness. so the sweetness you describe is perhaps the unfermentable sweetness. that plus a grain bill with 90+% fermentable grain and you don't have much true residual sugar, but some is there due to mash.

TL;DR = it's not sweet like pure sugar or like chocolate cake would be sweet, but it would be "sweet" like a loaf of bread could be described as "sweet"

AugustusRex
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Post by AugustusRex »

atomeyes wrote:
TL;DR = it's not sweet like pure sugar or like chocolate cake would be sweet, but it would be "sweet" like a loaf of bread could be described as "sweet"
Lol, yeah that's what I meant by sweet. We can agree PU doesn't taste like an alcopop or cake.

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

AugustusRex wrote:
atomeyes wrote:
TL;DR = it's not sweet like pure sugar or like chocolate cake would be sweet, but it would be "sweet" like a loaf of bread could be described as "sweet"
Lol, yeah that's what I meant by sweet. We can agree PU doesn't taste like an alcopop or cake.
:D

but getting back to the original post: i'd never describe Urquel as having complex sweetness. nothing complex about the grist whatsoever. and it isn't bone dry like a saison, but i'd never use the term "sweet" to describe that or any blonde-coloured pilsner. bread ain't complex. :)

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saints_gambit
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Post by saints_gambit »

Mountain Lager is really really good. I never let it get warm enough to notice much sweetness.

I'll put it to you this way: If I had to choose one Ontario beer to drink for the next year, it'd be Mountain Lager.
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napoleon
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Post by napoleon »

atomeyes wrote: but getting back to the original post: i'd never describe Urquel as having complex sweetness. nothing complex about the grist whatsoever. and it isn't bone dry like a saison, but i'd never use the term "sweet" to describe that or any blonde-coloured pilsner. bread ain't complex. :)
I kind of never thought I'd read a discussion of Pilsner Urquel on a beer lovers forum :P

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Kish84
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Post by Kish84 »

saints_gambit wrote:Mountain Lager is really really good. I never let it get warm enough to notice much sweetness.

I'll put it to you this way: If I had to choose one Ontario beer to drink for the next year, it'd be Mountain Lager.
I would have to say the same, this, or Black Swan Wild Child.
"There's always money in the banana stand."

atomeyes
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Post by atomeyes »

napoleon wrote:
atomeyes wrote: but getting back to the original post: i'd never describe Urquel as having complex sweetness. nothing complex about the grist whatsoever. and it isn't bone dry like a saison, but i'd never use the term "sweet" to describe that or any blonde-coloured pilsner. bread ain't complex. :)
I kind of never thought I'd read a discussion of Pilsner Urquel on a beer lovers forum :P
if you ever have the opportunity to try the unfiltered PU, which only seems to come here via their beer reps swagging out restaurateurs, then do so. it's a really pretty beer. their yeast shines. zero skunk

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boney
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Post by boney »

atomeyes wrote:
napoleon wrote:
atomeyes wrote: but getting back to the original post: i'd never describe Urquel as having complex sweetness. nothing complex about the grist whatsoever. and it isn't bone dry like a saison, but i'd never use the term "sweet" to describe that or any blonde-coloured pilsner. bread ain't complex. :)
I kind of never thought I'd read a discussion of Pilsner Urquel on a beer lovers forum :P
if you ever have the opportunity to try the unfiltered PU, which only seems to come here via their beer reps swagging out restaurateurs, then do so. it's a really pretty beer. their yeast shines. zero skunk
Yep, would agree with all that.

The Nefiltrovany Urqell is indeed sometging special. Really lovely stuff. The restaurant at the beer museum in Pilsen has it on at all times, so paying to get it at the end of the Urquell tour isn't necessary. I spent an enening there drinking 5 or 6 pints in a row, which I have never done with any lager.

Even though it's not Bohemian, has anyone tried the unfiltered Steam Whistle? Had it at C'est What last weekend and it was pretty stellar. Obviously way more complex than the standard Steam Whistle. Don't know how widely available it normally is or if it was just made for TBW, but it would probably be my session of choice if I could get it regularly.

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