100 Mile Lager

[atomeyes]

"you have to understand your audience

Toronto doesn't have a good burger.
Burger's Priest opens 3 locations. Holy Chuck opens 2. all are packed.

find the void. fill it. get rich.

Without knowing the sales figures it is all pie in the sky. Perhaps locavores make up the beer void that needs to be filled.

I've only been to the Burger's Priest location on Yonge. It has no tables and only six stools, it doesn't take much to make it packed - but damn the burgers were good!

and no one will disclose their sales figures. but you can kind of do the math. if you're a new brewery and, within 2-3 years of opening, you're able to finance phases 2 and 3, you have to be doing quite ok.

also, any good businessperson will calculate projections. conservative and aggresive projections. so you have some idea as to how much money your space can make.

[Bobsy]

"you have to understand your audience..."

Toronto doesn't have good tacos.
within 2 years, Grand Electric, La Carnita and 7 Lives open up.
Can't find a seat in either place.

Toronto doesn't have a good burger.
Burger's Priest opens 3 locations. Holy Chuck opens 2. all are packed.

find the void. fill it. get rich.

I think you misunderstand my point. We can probably both agree that there are differences between US beer drinkers and Canadian ones. If only that there's been a longer exposure to craft beer on a wide scale. I'm saying that you can't assume the same of Canada and expect the same result. It's kinda like exporting US democracy to other countries and then wondering why it's not a raging success.

[Bobsy]

except that Bellwoods is successful. And Amsterdam had a line-up for their XX release.
and Beard of Zeus got people out for that release party, even though it was available in the LCBO.

I think you mentioned earlier that breweries like Bellwoods, while great, don't have the broad distribution to make an impact beyond their neighbourhood. I know very little of their business plan, but they are more than a retail store, and I'd think that's a big reason why they're thriving. A loyal bar clientele is likely to help with your retail sales, and boost it beyond the beer geek crowd. Its an approach that I think kicks ass. Steady income at the bar, and also expanding and creating craft beer advocates. Replicable across the province in the LCBO - maybe, maybe not.

I'd hesitate to use events as a barometer of the wider public's readiness for a brewery of, let's say, Jolly Pumpkin's ilk entering mass retail successfully. I'd like to think that working on TBW has given me a good handle of events in the city. There's a lot of repeat crowd at the niche events where the lineup is very friendly to the bar towel crowd. The events that bring more people into the fold tend to have what may be considered 'safer' styles. A decent IPA may be a good play at Brewery Market, but a barrel-aged sour might only appeal to a few.

And Liam, to your point, building business around a great core product makes perfect sense. I think there's a lot of breweries that have great regular products here (not necessarily their first entry), so I think we're already seeing that. I'm not sure many places open up with a plan to brew beer they think is shitty. Beyond that it's pretty subjective. Maybe we differ on what we think a great product is, but at the core we agree on the idea.

[Belgian]

The events that bring more people into the fold tend to have what may be considered 'safer' styles. A decent IPA may be a good play at Brewery Market, but a barrel-aged sour might only appeal to a few.

Good, because someone was saying IPA is not a 'safe' style and I agree with you b/c the perception shifts so much as the avaialbility of new styles gives people the chance to accept (Berliner, Sours, Saisons...) IPAs were at one time not readily accepted here.

Not to pick on Beau's (again) but I agree they somewhat drop the ball on 'accurate styles' of beers which people nonetheless ARE willing to jump in and try, based on the über-cool packaging and sheer brand confidence people seem to have in Mr. Beauschene's funky brewery... (those new barrel-aged beers were cleared right off the shelf yesterday at King and Spadina LCBO, have ye little faith Bobsy!) So maybe an opportunity is there more than we think.

Just as an example buyer resistance is maybe not the entire challenge. Confidence in brewing the true styles may sometimes be as well... just a thought.

[atomeyes]

"you have to understand your audience..."

Toronto doesn't have good tacos.
within 2 years, Grand Electric, La Carnita and 7 Lives open up.
Can't find a seat in either place.

Toronto doesn't have a good burger.
Burger's Priest opens 3 locations. Holy Chuck opens 2. all are packed.

find the void. fill it. get rich.

I think you misunderstand my point. We can probably both agree that there are differences between US beer drinkers and Canadian ones. If only that there's been a longer exposure to craft beer on a wide scale. I'm saying that you can't assume the same of Canada and expect the same result. It's kinda like exporting US democracy to other countries and then wondering why it's not a raging success.

Strusse in Belgium was initially frowned upon because of their mix of Belgian and US style beer. they keep on expanding their production and have some of the world's best beer.

can't say that there are differences between US and Canadian beer drinkers. that's just silly. do we traditionally have different palates? no. do we have half a millenium of beer drinking culture that is hard to break through, like Germany? no. are we worse off economically, meaning that we can't afford to brew or purchase barrel-aged or high ABV beer? no.

if we're a decade behind the US and parts of Europe, wouldn't it make sense to look at how they trended or are trending and follow the upcoming trends? works for fashion and food.

[nickw]

Is the "taint" of Amsterdam Blonde or Great Lakes Red Leaf really that bad? Like has been said, people still lined up for XX, people still attended the Zeus release shindig, so obviously they're doing well at tapping into the beer geek culture that exists in this market. I'm really having a hard time seeing why having some more generic options on the menu (that probably outsell the limited one-offs 100 or 1000 to 1) that allow for some financial freedom to allow increasing experimentation to take place is such a horrible thing.

I firmly believe (because I was one of those people when I moved to Toronto) that, to grow the beer culture, making the switch from mass market stuff (whether domestic lagers or massive imports like Guinness) to the local scene is a huge part of the battle, and chances are, you're going to have to ease newbies into it slowly. Tell people that "hey, give Great Lakes Red Leaf lager a try", or "you like Guinness? Why not try a Mill Street Cobblestone instead?", or "Cameron's has a couple of beers you might be interested in". And, over time, as people see that their local beers are as good or better, they slowly start to branch out, they see the local brands they recognize in attractive packaging (like Tank Ten's beautiful bottles) and decide to give them a try.

Are we going to ever have the same craft beer scene on a national scale that the US has? Probably not, but that's a function of many other things (distribution challenges, smaller markets and population, government monopolies and other sales challenges). As such, most breweries have their relatively small markets to work within (whether it is Vancouver Island/Lower Mainland, the prairies, southern Ontario; Nova Scotia, etc) and you need to have a few beers that appeal to a wider, non-BT audience to help pay the bills, especially if you plan on producing 10,000 bottles of a Harry Porter, or getting distribution province-wide. Indie and Bellwoods are successful without the generic beers in the mainstay lineup because they're different business models -- they're destinations first and foremost, and likely will remain a fraction the size of Nickel Brook, Amsterdam, Muskoka, Beau's, Great Lakes, etc. I'm lucky to live a 15 minute walk from Bellwoods, and am there weekly, but the craft beer fan in Whitby is probably going to have to rely on the nearest LCBO for a lot of his or her local craft beers.

I'm really in no position to judge these breweries -- for whom I have the utmost respect -- on how they run their businesses and what they've decided is the best way to continue to make a profit AND continue to make new and interesting beers. Ultimately, as has been said, I'd rather walk past Red Leaf to get to Beard of Zeus than to not have a Beard of Zeus at all. Or, because atomeyes is a fellow Winnipegger, I'd rather see half a bar drinking Half Pints St. James Pale after picking up some Le Temps Noir than not having Le Temps Noir to pick up at all.

[nickw]

*Hopefully we'll see more breweries like Left Field who buck the "safe ale" trend and start out the gate with interesting (to us) stuff. I think we probably will. But they can exist in this marketplace in large part by the heavy work that the established breweries (GL, Amsterdam, Mill Street) did (and are still doing) a decade ago or more ago by deciding to experiment a bit.

[liamt07]

Is the "taint" of Amsterdam Blonde or Great Lakes Red Leaf really that bad?

I don't think I (we?) we're saying that it's "bad," but when new breweries start up and are trying to crack into the market with redundant beers, it's more "useless" in my opinion. I have no hate for Red Leaf or Golden Horseshoe or Amsterdam Blonde etc. They fill a part of the market. What I dislike ("hate" might be a bit strong) is when breweries (Ontario Beer Company, Hop City, Lake of Bays, Double Trouble) continue to jam the same style(s) of beer into the market. It's easy to hop on the bandwagon and do the exact same stuff everyone else does; make your own mark/carve your own niche. Continually pumping beers into the already saturated "pale lager" market screams of a brewer/brewery trying to make a quick buck off of people who can't tell the difference between their beer and some other highly marketed lager.

[saints_gambit]

One of the things that people frequently forget on this forum is the fact that 80% of the population still really likes lager. They drink marketing and piss light beer.

The beer currently available in Ontario in terms of quality and selection is as good as it has ever been in the history of the province. The access to the market is getting better and if we just keep at it we can remove some of the barriers. We're maybe half a decade behind the US in terms of quality and we're closing quickly. In terms of actual culture we're maybe further behind and meeting resistance.

My point is that if someone wants to brew what is a slightly better than average lager branded with a 100 mile gimmick, there's a market for that. There's a market for every style of beer under the sun here. There's no reason to get all chippy about the fact that a brewery is not catering to you out of the gate, but instead opting to go for the 80% of the market that likes lagers.

The quality of beer in this province is going to get better and better over the next few years. The variety is going to get better and better. Craft beer will gain more and more market share.

However, even if craft beer were to explode tomorrow and take 25% of the market, making a beer that appeals to the vast majority of beer drinkers who enjoy lager would still be the smart play, especially when it's branded with a 100 mile gimmick to get the locavores all hot and bothered.

Probably ought to do something about the stripey cans, though. I'm colorblind and I still find them garish.

[Bobsy]

Strusse in Belgium was initially frowned upon because of their mix of Belgian and US style beer. they keep on expanding their production and have some of the world's best beer.

can't say that there are differences between US and Canadian beer drinkers. that's just silly. do we traditionally have different palates? no. do we have half a millenium of beer drinking culture that is hard to break through, like Germany? no. are we worse off economically, meaning that we can't afford to brew or purchase barrel-aged or high ABV beer? no.

if we're a decade behind the US and parts of Europe, wouldn't it make sense to look at how they trended or are trending and follow the upcoming trends? works for fashion and food.

You have a point about trending - there's definitely value there if you think the markets are similar. However, I was referring to understanding who your audience is now, not in 10 years. Liam asked why breweries done't follow the US model and break the mould now. I'm saying our markets are fundamentally different at this point in time for numerous reasons (retail model, longer craft history, greater market penetration in the US) and this would hinder success. Like I said, I think we just need time to get there.

I've marketed to Canadians and I've marketed to Americans. On the surface we appear the same, but I'm shocked at some of the fundamental differences when we dig into it. It's one of the reasons that US companies often reface many of their advertising campaigns to appeal to subtle differences in the market.

I can't speak of Struise - I've drank a tonne of their stuff, but don't know how much is export v domestic. So it's hard to determine if their success is domestic or internationally led. I certainly couldn't find them when I was there three years ago, but I may just have been in the wrong joints.

[Weebay]

Reworded: Beers of this style, at this cost, are EXACTLY what we need less of in Ontario.

There are literally dozens of other pale lagers available in Ontario of better quality (in terms of flavour profile, mouthfeel etc). Why add to an already saturated market?

At $3 bucks a can as well? I can pick up beers from the other side of the globe that are in the same style, for almost a dollar cheaper for the same volume. For an even more extreme example: For the same cost as buying two cans of this, I could've bought a 12oz bottle of 15% bourbon barrel aged imperial stout with coffee (read: Bourbon County Coffee). And the difference is light years in magnitude.

Why buy this beer? Other than the "100 Mile" gimmick, it's just a rehash of every other pale lager I've ever had (barring those from Jack's Abby). Frankly, I'd be more interested in a style of beer that the market isn't already flushed with. Perhaps a 100 Mile Rauchbier? A 100 Mile Porter? A 100 Mile ESB? A 100 Mile RIS? A 100 Mile Wee Heavy? A 100 Mile Mild?

I'm not knocking collaborations, as they can be pretty cool. I want to support Ontario, but when breweries keep turning out beers like this, at this level of innovation, at this cost, I'm going to let my wallet do the talking. And I know my opinion on this beer (as well as the 100 Mile Ale) does not stand alone. Reviews on both BA and RB speak to the quality as well.

Liam - I respect the fact that you don't much care for our beer. And the last thing we'd ever want to do is to fool a good citizen like yourself into parting with their hard earned cash to purchase another "generic" pale lager. Not when they could be stocking up on all the Double IPA's and Barrel aged beers they could possibly ever consume. God forbid if we were to offend even one of Ontario's chosen beer drinkers with another Pale Lager in the Ont market (even if it is hoppier than most others and helps support Ontario farmers). I know this can be really hard to comprehend (mind boggling, really) but some people actually like these beers (it's crazy, I know!) and they're buying them!?.. all those "gimmicks" be damned! I guess maybe the Rate Beer or BA crowd wasn't exactly the target audience for the beers (actually, a fact)… but we appreciate the unbiased opinions by the Raters who don't totally trash 'em.. It takes a pretty refined palate and inventive imagination to come up with some of that stuff. And when it comes to expanding into other styles we hear you loud and clear... and that's why I'm so excited to announce it here first, our newest seasonal offering: 100 MILE LITE!

We're currently in the process of acquiring copious amounts of Ontario grown corn and rice and plan to use the absolute minimum amount of Ontario grown hops (Hallertauer most likely) to top it out at 5 IBU!!... it'll be about 4.2% abv and available for a limited time only at $2.99 per can. We plan to sell a tonne of it, and if all goes as planned, we should be relaxing on our new yacht in Lake Ontario by the end of summer, enjoying a few absurdly lowly rated (but highly profitable!) 100 MILE LITES… it's a sweet life I tell ya. You can thank me later!

Cheers!

Brad

p.s. thanks once again to Gary and Velovampire for getting what we do. We'll actually spare you the 100 Mile Lite.

p.s.s. I'm afraid this will have to be my last post in this thread.. too much brewing to do!

This is the most unprofessional response I have seen from a brewery representative in all my life. I'll never be buying anything these clowns brew.

[Mr.X]

Yep, it was a bad response. I thought Liam's response was well thought out and explained his thoughts without being overly harsh or critical. I'd say the breweries response is "exhibit A" in the discussion that occurred in another thread (cannot recall which one) which wondered by more brewers/breweries do not post/comment or represent themselves on Bar Towel.

Continuing the discussion as to the Ontario market and new products - I did a quick check at the mom and hops directory site which now lists a whopping 59 breweries in the "planning" stage and I'm sure there are a few more haven't been publicly announced yet. Of course we have no idea how many of these will actually go from planning to mash but I cannot help but wonder how many of them can make a go of it financially - especially those that are in some remote communities/areas. Knowing that LCBO space is shrinking coupled with the difficulties of getting your product on taps I surely hope some of them are planning products to really set themselves apart in what is quickly becoming a saturated market. (saturated may be too harsh a word but I'm having trouble coming up with another). I hope they all make it and are able to establish themselves in their home markets but I do wonder how they'll all survive.

[TheSevenDuffs]

This is the most unprofessional response I have seen from a brewery representative in all my life. I'll never be buying anything these clowns brew.

I second that.

Also, I find it somewhat ironic that a brewery who isn't catering to the beer nerds (the RB/BA crowd) even reads this forum, let along posts on it. It's more or less the same crowd here as on RB and BA (most of us are on 2 or all 3 sites).

BradC: best of luck with your brewing endeavors. You might want to let someone else handle your PR though.

[lister]

The response doesn't bother me.

But then again I think some of you here deserve a response such as that.

And I'm going to deserve the responses to my response.

IMO the line for unprofessional responses is pretty much Peter at esprit. Brad's doesn't even come close. Not that Peter's conduct has bothered me much either.

You wonder why breweries don't post much...

[FEUO]

This is the most unprofessional response I have seen from a brewery representative in all my life. I'll never be buying anything these clowns brew.

Agreed.

Who knew a review of another lager would go 6 pages?

Why do people talk about Bellwoods? Different styles of beer made well.

Bush Pilot? I applaud the effort. That effort will have me reach for their next product. Was it a perfect beer? No. Was it as bad as some make it out be? Not in my opinion. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

All this discussion about how far behind Ontario is as compared to MI is tiring. And it will remain exhausting for a good decade or two. Some folks have already talked about the generalized palate of our province. The system has helped tame this palate and brewers like 100 Mile are not helping.

I look at the beer scene and taste as generational. Much like smoking was a thing pushed by ads and allowed to be done everywhere (see: system) things were eventually changed. But it took decades.
Systemic changes as grand as this will probably take just as long.

Until then, we will see projects like 100 Mile come and go but envelope pushers will be embraced and supported by the groundswells of neck beards and geeks that will one day run shop in this curmudgeonist province.