Sexism in beer labels in Ontario

[CoolB]

Cheers to that Matthewgeorge!

[portwood]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

1. You're obviously a much better dad than I'll ever be. You should get a trophy for discussing all the important issues and things in the world that make a real difference...
2. The past was great and should never change. I'm sure your daughters wouldn't mind not being able to vote.

[portwood]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

1. You're obviously a much better dad than I'll ever be. You should get a trophy for discussing all the important issues and things in the world that make a real difference...
2. The past was great and should never change. Our mothers, grandmothers, and female ancestors were great survivors, I'm sure your daughters would love to lead the same lives and wouldn't mind not being able to vote.

[portwood]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

1. You're obviously a much better dad than I'll ever be. You should get a trophy for discussing all the important issues and things in the world that make a real difference...
2. The past was great and should never change. Our mothers, grandmothers, and female ancestors were great survivors. For old times sake, I'm sure your daughters would love not being able to vote.

[portwood]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

1. You're obviously a much better dad than I'll ever be. You should get a trophy for discussing all the important issues and things in the world that make a real difference...
2. The past was great and should never change. Our mothers, grandmothers, and female ancestors were great survivors. For old times sake, I'm sure your daughters would love not being able to vote.

[CoolB]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

1. You're obviously a much better dad than I'll ever be. You should get a trophy for discussing all the important issues and things in the world that make a real difference...
2. The past was great and should never change. I'm sure your daughters wouldn't mind not being able to vote.

1. Real mature. I ask some simple question and get BS sarcasm in reply. What exactly did it add to the discussion?

2. Women won the vote long before either of us were born. What exactly was is the point of your continued sarcasm and that completely irrelevant comment? Is it that you have nothing of sustenance to actually add to the conversation?

I'm not trying to be a dick to you. You're doing a good enough job of looking like one yourself.

Is this all because of 2 words? Drama Queen? That's enough to set you off?

[CoolB]

Might as well buy them faraday cages right now then. It's nice to know you're planning your daughters futures already. Do they get a say? Mine will. We talk and discuss important issues and the things in the world that will make a real difference. We try to stay grounded and remain reasonable people.

How in the world did our parents, grandparents and other ancestors ever survive in the terrible past that some people are so adamant to change?

2. The past was great and should never change. Our mothers, grandmothers, and female ancestors were great survivors, I'm sure your daughters would love to lead the same lives and wouldn't mind not being able to vote.

The 1930's say hello

[boney]

Discussing how misogyny is subtly ingrained in all aspects of society is an important conversation to have. People don't have to agree. They don't even have a responsibility to have those conversations if they don't want to. But if anyone wants to actually have that conversation, can we do it without snark and name calling and attempt to have a thoughtful conversation? Can we not use lazy, accusatory, ad hominem language that has no relivance to the actual discussion, like "drama queen" or, before we even get there, "snowflake", "nazi" etc.

Is this cool with everyone? The internet. Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I agree with the previous post that NB's repsonse was sub-par. "We'll change it if it hurts sales" doesn't address the concern that the cans (Naughty and Immodest) might be sexist and doesn't speak to the responsibility a company may or may not have to being a good member of the larger community.

The argument that the issue must not matter or isn't a big deal if sales are good isn't a strong argument. Sales and ethics are not equivalent. If the majority do or say a particular thing, it doesn't make it right. The need to tweak the imagry of those cans should be made independently of sales.

Side note: Hey-ya Nickel Brook! I really love your beers. I've been an enthusiastic supporter for many years. I want you to be successful. I will continue to buy whatever you put out, as long as the labels are thoughtful and appropriate. I'd really like to drink Naughty Neighbor and Immodest, because they are excellent beers, but after thoughful consideration, I just can't support what I see as a subtle endorsement of misogyny. Your public response to concerns over the imagry on those cans in "Ben's Beer Blog" wasn't acceptable. I hope you will reconsider your branding. Should you ever decide to change the labels on those cans to something more inclusive and acceptable to all of your purchasing base, I will enthusiastically return to buying those excellent beers in the future. All the best.

[CoolB]

Discussing how misogyny is subtly ingrained in all aspects of society is an important conversation to have. People don't have to agree. They don't even have a responsibility to have those conversations if they don't want to. But if anyone wants to actually have that conversation, can we do it without snark and name calling and attempt to have a thoughtful conversation? Can we not use lazy, accusatory, ad hominem language that has no relivance to the actual discussion, like "drama queen" or, before we even get there, "snowflake", "nazi" etc.

Is this cool with everyone? The internet. Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I agree with the previous post that NB's repsonse was sub-par. "We'll change it if it hurts sales" doesn't address the concern that the cans (Naughty and Immodest) might be sexist and doesn't speak to the responsibility a company may or may not have to being a good member of the larger community.

The argument that the issue must not matter or isn't a big deal if sales are good isn't a strong argument. Sales and ethics are not equivalent. If the majority do or say a particular thing, it doesn't make it right. The need to tweak the imagry of those cans should be made independently of sales.

Side note: Hey-ya Nickel Brook! I really love your beers. I've been an enthusiastic supporter for many years. I want you to be successful. I will continue to buy whatever you put out, as long as the labels are thoughtful and appropriate. I'd really like to drink Naughty Neighbor and Immodest, because they are excellent beers, but after thoughful consideration, I just can't support what I see as a subtle endorsement of misogyny. Your public response to concerns over the imagry on those cans in "Ben's Beer Blog" wasn't acceptable. I hope you will reconsider your branding. Should you ever decide to change the labels on those cans to something more inclusive and acceptable to all of your purchasing base, I will enthusiastically return to buying those excellent beers in the future. All the best.

Beautiful cherry picking here. It's obvious you don't agree with me, that's fine but if you're going to put your 2 cents in then what about what started all this, the part with my opinion being "fucking wrong and ignorant".

To be honest I don't feel you have said anything to help this situation along. You've stated your opinion but just like a few others you follow it up with some authoritarian attitude that your opinion is in fact the correct one.

"The argument that the issue must not matter or isn't a big deal if sales are good isn't a strong argument. Sales and ethics are not equivalent."

Ok so the ethics part? I'm open to you being offended by the babel however I'm not so your insinuation that by association I am unethical is unwarranted and unwanted. How is this not "snark and name calling and attempt to have a thoughtful conversation?" Eat some crow friend. I said nothing to you and yet I'm still the brunt of some snarkish insult.

"If the majority do or say a particular thing, it doesn't make it right."

I'm sorry but that the democratic society we live in. Deal with it or not but unless you have laws, governments and societal structures changed you are bound to the laws of our democratic country. Plainly put it's not your determination to make. We do that as a group.

I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion but I sure feel like the only conservative in a room full of liberals. Sorry but unless you stop trying to push your ideals on all of society without wavering in the slightest this is the kind of angry vitriol you can expect from people who are sick and tired of being told.

[CoolB]

I've got all the sensitive people's nickers in a knot and I'm sorry that has affected Nickle Brooks thread however it's important to speak your mind as clearly as possible.

I'll back out of this conversation now and allow one of my favorite breweries to have their Bar Towel thread back.

Peace

[atomeyes]

Discussing how misogyny is subtly ingrained in all aspects of society is an important conversation to have. People don't have to agree. They don't even have a responsibility to have those conversations if they don't want to. But if anyone wants to actually have that conversation, can we do it without snark and name calling and attempt to have a thoughtful conversation? Can we not use lazy, accusatory, ad hominem language that has no relivance to the actual discussion, like "drama queen" or, before we even get there, "snowflake", "nazi" etc.

Is this cool with everyone? The internet. Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I agree with the previous post that NB's repsonse was sub-par. "We'll change it if it hurts sales" doesn't address the concern that the cans (Naughty and Immodest) might be sexist and doesn't speak to the responsibility a company may or may not have to being a good member of the larger community.

The argument that the issue must not matter or isn't a big deal if sales are good isn't a strong argument. Sales and ethics are not equivalent. If the majority do or say a particular thing, it doesn't make it right. The need to tweak the imagry of those cans should be made independently of sales.

Side note: Hey-ya Nickel Brook! I really love your beers. I've been an enthusiastic supporter for many years. I want you to be successful. I will continue to buy whatever you put out, as long as the labels are thoughtful and appropriate. I'd really like to drink Naughty Neighbor and Immodest, because they are excellent beers, but after thoughful consideration, I just can't support what I see as a subtle endorsement of misogyny. Your public response to concerns over the imagry on those cans in "Ben's Beer Blog" wasn't acceptable. I hope you will reconsider your branding. Should you ever decide to change the labels on those cans to something more inclusive and acceptable to all of your purchasing base, I will enthusiastically return to buying those excellent beers in the future. All the best.

Beautiful cherry picking here. It's obvious you don't agree with me, that's fine but if you're going to put your 2 cents in then what about what started all this, the part with my opinion being "fucking wrong and ignorant".

To be honest I don't feel you have said anything to help this situation along. You've stated your opinion but just like a few others you follow it up with some authoritarian attitude that your opinion is in fact the correct one.

"The argument that the issue must not matter or isn't a big deal if sales are good isn't a strong argument. Sales and ethics are not equivalent."

Ok so the ethics part? I'm open to you being offended by the babel however I'm not so your insinuation that by association I am unethical is unwarranted and unwanted. How is this not "snark and name calling and attempt to have a thoughtful conversation?" Eat some crow friend. I said nothing to you and yet I'm still the brunt of some snarkish insult.

"If the majority do or say a particular thing, it doesn't make it right."

I'm sorry but that the democratic society we live in. Deal with it or not but unless you have laws, governments and societal structures changed you are bound to the laws of our democratic country. Plainly put it's not your determination to make. We do that as a group.

I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion but I sure feel like the only conservative in a room full of liberals. Sorry but unless you stop trying to push your ideals on all of society without wavering in the slightest this is the kind of angry vitriol you can expect from people who are sick and tired of being told.

i'm going to reply without any snark or sarcasm or emotion. i'm also hung over and going on little sleep, so we'll see how coherent this is. hah.

first, i do apologize for what's sometimes my blunt (or rude) posts. i name call to make a point, and no, it doesn't result in dialogue. but, to be honest, i get shocked by what i find to be such strange and, frankly, socially ignorant opinions that i toss out the snark as a "shame on you mechanism". and that's not right.

i read Boney's reply and, frankly, i thought it was excellent, thorough and intelligent, and that has little to do with me agreeing with his opinion.

the can doesn't have a picture of a girl sucking her own tits. if it did, we'd all agree that would be 100% offside and repugant (i hope). but what you, CoolB, fail to realize are two points:

1. the beer industry's had a rich (recent) history of pairing beer sales/ads with objectifying women. watch most beer commercials that do not involve Clydesdales. Yes, these commercials result in sales, but it continues a cycle of misogeny and objectification of one sex in particular. what I, and others, ask for and hope for is for society to break this cycle, to raise kids to understand that, no, it's not right to cash in on the stupidity of others at the expense of a sex. it's not a huge leap in logic, but you can follow the breadcrumbs from subtle objectification - like the Nickebrook can - to comments like "if a woman doesn't want to get raped, she shouldn't dress like that." Again, it's about breaking cycles and tweaking how we think so that we, as a society, can become more inclusive and can change the patriarchy a wee bit.
2. no one's saying that the beer can's incredibly offensive. but it also is not needed. and sales based on a can shouldn't be what this is about. it's about doing the right thing. Nickelbrook's been part of a dialogue on here, via Ben's article, via social media. even if 2% of its customers object to the label, you have to be pretty tone deaf to not self-reflect, ask "is this label wrong?" and to consider others feelings. and that's kind of what they're doing. "we hear ya, but we're not listening."

so getting back to the can. it's a(n awfully done) drawing of a woman, it refers to her/the beer as being "full bodied." it's objectifying women. it's pretty black and white. if i had a can and it was a picture of an Indian chief and i called it a "strong, Indian ale" or a "savagely delicious beer", would you not find that to be offensive? i'm not 1st nations, but i can say that, yes, that's fucking wrong as hell and not necessary.

Matthewgeorge asked about GLB's cans and the gender roles portrayed. and they're so painfully obvious. the man's an oaf, the woman's hot. and its tiring. personally, i hate things like Long Dong Pilsner.


OMG. 3 bells. two are balls, one's a shaft! like, are we 7 years old here? do we need to name a beer after a male porn star?

CoolB: you talk about not pushing our ideals onto you, but you're forgetting that we're living in a society where the previous generation's ideals are projected on us and shoved down our throats. We're in a white, Christian society and our values, holidays, liquor laws, etc reflect that. Societies evolve. 20 years ago, gay marriage was illegal. now, thankfully, it's not. i consider that to be a win for society because it grants freedoms to a group of people. 20 years ago, i used "gay" as a description because that's how i grew up. through dialogue and social conciousness, i've dropped that. it doesn't make me a better person, but it makes society better. and that's not about negatively being politically correct, but one's sexual preference shouldn't be used as a (usually negative) descriptor. just like using one's religion to describe frugalty or nationality to describe stupidity is no longer done because it's wrong and ignorant. you say you're "sick and tired of being told." what i hear is that you don't like to be told that you're wrong. maybe that's not the case, but your responses, CoolB, sure seem that way. so why not take a second and wonder why these "liberals" are always telling you what to think? maybe it's because we're not all on the same page and some see that page more clearly than others. the least you can do is engage in discussion and, yes, do some navel gazing. it won't kill you to do so. i've been there and i'm still there. got to reflect on what we say and how we say it so that we can be more inclusive.

so...we've made steps forward, and we still have a ways to go. when there's documented inequality in women's wages and when you look at CEOs and mainly see males, you know that society has issues. can these issues be solved by re-doing NB's shitty, ugly can? of course not. but dialogue and awareness of underlying issues and doing what's necessary to stop objectifying women and assigning gender stereotypes and objectification is part of the process of society growing and improving. it's so fucking simple for NB to NOT have a can. it's so fucking simple to not name TWO of your core beer in a sexually suggestive or objectifying manner. what is "Naughty Neighbour" now insinuating? before, i'd have said it was a reference to it being an APA and the "A" is for "America" and hahahaha the Americans, they're naughty. now, it's about your next door neighbour that's probably married and, boy, is she ever wanting you to fuck her and demean her. just...just look at her. she's so very naughty. probably want you to do such and such to her. and that other woman?


she's wearing fishnet stockings. what a whore. why can't she be more modest and wear sweatpants? but i bet her immodesty's getting you all hot and bothered, so buy the beer, drink it and it will cool you down.

see how ridiculous that is? but really, is that not the thought process?

and when we talk about being too politically correct, it's because we've been politically incorrect for a long, long time. the pendulum swings. it will probably swing too far, but that's fine with me.

thanks

[atomeyes]

I've got all the sensitive people's nickers in a knot and I'm sorry that has affected Nickle Brooks thread however it's important to speak your mind as clearly as possible.

I'll back out of this conversation now and allow one of my favorite breweries to have their Bar Towel thread back.

Peace

and just so you know, i take being called "sensitive" as a compliment. it means that i care about hurting others.
so thank you.

[CoolB]

Wow atomeyes turning this into a full blown witch hunt.

Good luck in your endeavours. I'm done with this and to be honest to show my support I'll go to my local LCBO today and pick up some of both and I'll enjoy the beers with my wife and daughter maybe even in the same room too. Life will go on and we will remain a happy family.

Peace

Onto other subjects I had the Nickle Brook Ceres the other day (the cucumber and lime gose) and also heard it being taste tested on the radio with TJ Conners from 97.7 fm and I gotta agree with TJ. It's a damn refreshing beer and hopefully I'll be able to have a few in the fridge over the summer for the hot, hot days.

Good job on this one guys!

[atomeyes]

Wow atomeyes turning this into a full blown witch hunt.

see? i try to be nice for once, and this is what i get as a reply.

there's no witch hunt. there's no us against you.
if you don't want to hear what i or others think about this, just remember that you'll hear this msg again and again. this is a case where we are right. it's a shame you can't or won't see what we're saying and even consider it.

enjoy your weekend.

[CoolB]

Trying to move on. Scanned the post and saw lots of sarcasm and examples of glb art work. Seemed rather witch huntish. If not then I apologize for that but as I said trying to move on so gave a quick reply and moved onto another subject....... Such as how good NB beer is.

Can't wait to see you guys at the Albino Rhino beer fest.

Cheers