Sexism in beer labels in Ontario

[boney]

Hoo boy. A lot more to unpack in this thread over the last day or so. Let me try to throw some perspective in here. Wait till the end, I'll get there.....

Potentially sexist marketing on beer cans is not the most important societal issue of our times. You wont find me protesting in front of Nickel Brook with a crazy sign, screaming "for the love of God, think of the children!". It's not my Battle of Waterloo. Dig?

Does the can offend me? Not really. I don't feel it's meer existence is a deep affront to my own completely seperate existence. It's presence doesn't throw my life into dissaray and I wont spend every second of my day obsessing over it and how it impacts every molecule of my being. Then again, any one of you could call me a complete dim witted fuckity fuck and that's wouldn't offend me either. Disagreeing with someone and backing it up with well reasoned arguments is different than being offended.

Which brings us back to that God damned can.

So, no, not the biggest issue and, no, it doesn't offent me. BUT......I recognize that SUBTLE sexism and misogeny permiates every aspect of society, is institutionalized at every level and might, just might, color every aspect of our lives, our biases and our individual and societal self identity (feel free to disagree....that's prt of the discussion!). I'd also contend that sexism is shitty and trying our best to push it out of society is better for everyone. The NB can is not the smoking gun, but it Could be a simple inocuous, seemingly inconsequential symptom of a larger problem.

So, saying "don't be such a snowflake" or "this is such a blown out of proportion bullshit issue" (not trying specifically to quote anyone in particular) Might be a tad dismissive of a larger, more important discussion. And I think it's one worth having. If you don't, that's cool. If you disagree with some of the finer points of the argument and want to continue the discussion, that's cool too. Just don't outright disregard the argument without thinking about all of the historical, social, economic, political, gendered, etc etc aspects of the argument. It's complex shit, man!

So, no black or white, you're wrong, I'm right, hyperbole. All I'd like to do is aknowledge that sexism in craft beer is something worth talking about, and I'd like to use the NB can as a single discussion point / jumping off point.

Fair?

An aside: I'm in agreement on reasonableness and general awesomeness magnifying in person. I'm in the Hammer. I have so much vacation time built up, I'm taking most of June off. If anyone is in my hood and wants to discuss any of this stuff over a pint, I'm game, no matter what you or I might have said on the internet. Cheers.

[S M A]

Wow. I was looking for some info on a brewpub and I find this.

I actually looked up the NN can. I don't really like the design at all. I do, OTOH, like the Immodest can a lot.

But that's not really the point here, is it?

As someone else said, those taking offense here really need to step back. What do they really want? Is the female body offensive? If (hopefully) not, do images of it depend on context for acceptability? Who determines that? The whole line of reasoning here is ludicrous.

These 'arguments' also condescendingly assume that women are such poor delicate little flowers that a beer can will crush them psychologically and chain them to the kitchen.

But again, these things are ridiculous, and thus unimportant.

More important: No person or group should determine for everyone else what they should or should not be able to look at/say/hear/write/read. Not the religious right (for example), and not posters here. People should be able to see that they're not the only ones in the world who think they're right.

People are taking more time to throw around words like 'moral' and 'right' than to elucidate why they think this is actually an issue. The best I can tell is that they think that this kind of imagery contributes to a general de-humanization of females in society. I guess they think it's a coincidence that societies in the world that are most tolerant of this sort of imagery are also (by far) the closest to gender-equity.

But the really big issue, to me, is that there is a culture of offense and victimhood today that seems to have run amok. It is no longer enough to have the freedom to express dissent and withhold support. People now demand to silence others and shame them into false apology, simply because they are offended. In effect, to try to force everyone to think as they do. It is quickly becoming Orwellian, and really needs to be stopped.

she's wearing fishnet stockings. what a whore. why can't she be more modest and wear sweatpants? but i bet her immodesty's getting you all hot and bothered, so buy the beer, drink it and it will cool you down.
see how ridiculous that is? but really, is that not the thought process?

No, that is not the thought process. The graphic is meant to compare the beer favourably to the image of the woman. Something like the unapologetic and unrestrained flavours being akin to a beautiful woman burlesque-dancing in her underwear, or something. You are the one that came up with 'whore', and who seems to think these labels would be better if the women were wearing sweatpants. You may want to give some serious thought as to why.

[atomeyes]

I'm not even sure what this is all about, oh ya "sexism in beer labels"
It's a shame the can goes right in the garbage as soon as it's empty, really, who keeps them or analysis them.....

Does anyone even pay any attention of the graphic design of the can? I would assume they just like the beer or want to try it, to each their own.

one day, take a trip to Buffalo. go to Premier Gourmet.
look at the shelves.

of course labels/packaging is huge. It arguably adds to the Bellwoods mystique (read: sales). and it's why breweries like LB and Amsterdam keep on repackaging.

[atomeyes]

The graphic is meant to compare the beer favourably to the image of the woman. Something like the unapologetic and unrestrained flavours being akin to a beautiful woman burlesque-dancing in her underwear, or something. You are the one that came up with 'whore', and who seems to think these labels would be better if the women were wearing sweatpants. You may want to give some serious thought as to why.

the answer is simple, and it's exactly what boney eloquently stated.

So, no, not the biggest issue and, no, it doesn't offent me. BUT......I recognize that SUBTLE sexism and misogeny permiates every aspect of society, is institutionalized at every level and might, just might, color every aspect of our lives, our biases and our individual and societal self identity (feel free to disagree....that's prt of the discussion!). I'd also contend that sexism is shitty and trying our best to push it out of society is better for everyone. The NB can is not the smoking gun, but it Could be a simple inocuous, seemingly inconsequential symptom of a larger problem.

So, saying "don't be such a snowflake" or "this is such a blown out of proportion bullshit issue" (not trying specifically to quote anyone in particular) Might be a tad dismissive of a larger, more important discussion. And I think it's one worth having. If you don't, that's cool. If you disagree with some of the finer points of the argument and want to continue the discussion, that's cool too. Just don't outright disregard the argument without thinking about all of the historical, social, economic, political, gendered, etc etc aspects of the argument. It's complex shit, man!

this is the issue. that's the summary. we are not puritans. i've even bolded the key message that boney (and I) are trying to make. this is simply a pissdrop in the ocean of a greater problem. still doesn't mean it's not worth discussing or tackling.

this isn't the battle or hill that i'm willing to die for. far from it. but it's such a small, relatively easy thing to discuss that, as said repeatedly, is part of a greater problem.

so, S M A, to address your point about me thinking it would be better for the women to wear sweatpants, my answer is this:
you don't need to have a woman on your can as your mascot or advertisement for beer.

using Bellwoods as a reference (since most people LOVE their labels), they don't have women objectified. no fishnets, no stockings, no sweatpants. they have art.

the other question i'll throw back at you: if you claim there's no problem, then why is there never ever a male equivalent of a Naughty Neighbour or Immodest label/can out there? if you can't look at that and see that as part of our argument, then i'm not sure what there is to discuss. there's clearly a gender imbalance and objectification and, as someone said a week ago, whenever a male is shown on a beer label, he's an oaf versus a woman being a sex object.

i've given my opinion in this discussion and i'll now (attempt to) sit back and let you guys go at it.

[atomeyes]

one more thing.

http://www.ohbeautifulbeer.com/

page 4. have yet to see a "sexy woman" label.

also lost on some posters here: are there many/any female posters on BarTowel? does no one stop to wonder why?

[S. St. Jeb]

It's a shame the can goes right in the garbage as soon as it's empty, really, who keeps them or analysis them

LOL, you have no idea. There's a whole world of beer can collector's out there. No different than coins, stamps etc. Not as common, but fundamentally no different.

[Hoppy's Tavern]

LOL, you have no idea. There's a whole world of beer can collector's out there. No different than coins, stamps etc. Not as common, but fundamentally no different.

LOL, never even thought of that, I'm pretty sure you are right.

You think they keep them full or empty?
If full, do you think if they run out of beer they will drink beers out of the collection and just replace them on a different day,

[seangm]

It's a shame the can goes right in the garbage as soon as it's empty, really, who keeps them or analysis them

LOL, you have no idea. There's a whole world of beer can collector's out there. No different than coins, stamps etc. Not as common, but fundamentally no different.

I have a small collection of cans/bottles, typically bottles with great artwork or one-offs and beers that are hard to come by in Ontario. One day when I have my basement bar they'll be used for decoration.

[S. St. Jeb]

LOL, you have no idea. There's a whole world of beer can collector's out there. No different than coins, stamps etc. Not as common, but fundamentally no different.

LOL, never even thought of that, I'm pretty sure you are right.

You think they keep them full or empty?
If full, do you think if they run out of beer they will drink beers out of the collection and just replace them on a different day,

I'm right. I'm one of them.

Cans are saved empty, but opened on the bottom so they look intact.

[Hoppy's Tavern]

I'm right. I'm one of them.

Cans are saved empty, but opened on the bottom so they look intact.

I love it, thumbs up.

[sofakingdrunk]

I'm not even sure what this is all about, oh ya "sexism in beer labels"
It's a shame the can goes right in the garbage as soon as it's empty, really, who keeps them or analysis them.....

Does anyone even pay any attention of the graphic design of the can? I would assume they just like the beer or want to try it, to each their own.

When I go on vacation to another country I
Always being back a couple of local beers. I drink them then I'll keep one of the empties(bottles only) as a momento. That being said, they're all sitting in a box collecting dust
In my basement

[Blasphomet]

one more thing.

http://www.ohbeautifulbeer.com/

page 4. have yet to see a "sexy woman" label.

also lost on some posters here: are there many/any female posters on BarTowel? does no one stop to wonder why?

Yeah women definitely don't post here because of Nickel Brook can art.


I was just watching the Jays game. How much does it hurt your feelings when the camera pans to hot babes in the crowd after a commercial break but doesn't pan to gross ones?

[portwood]

... but doesn't pan to gross ones?

I'd be interested to know how "gross ones" describe you

[Blasphomet]

... but doesn't pan to gross ones?

I'd be interested to know how "gross ones" describe you

Probably with the 'barfy barfy' finger down the throat hand signal.

[atomeyes]

I was just watching the Jays game. How much does it hurt your feelings when the camera pans to hot babes in the crowd after a commercial break but doesn't pan to gross ones?

dunno. too busy reading up on this. http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/feat ... fference#1