Buying a house....and more importantly a brewery

[dutchcanuck]

When I am unemployed at the end of next month I will take the time to really research a lot of these questions. I take possession of my house at the end of the month and the only thing I can think about is all the wonderful beer I'm going to brew, but more importantly HOW I'm going to do it.
It has become quite the obession attempting to find out what is the best way to homebrew. VERY fun.

But still...where have most of you guys gotten your equipment?
I can't believe you're all paying top dollar for stuff.

[Derek]

I'd bet a newer freezer would be at least twice as energy efficient as an old one (15+ years) when you consider better pumps, more efficient heat exchangers, better insulation plus the wear on an old unit. If you save $20-40 year in electric costs, you're probably looking at a 4-7 year payback depending on the size and age of a unit you buy.

I've got no doubt that a new one is more efficient.

But...

As a freezer, a new one will run about $35 a year. Say it's twice as efficient, it would take 10 years to cover the purchase price! Plus you don't have to pay it all up front, so you could be making interest on that money in the bank (or better yet, brewing beer with it!).

Now if you're running a temperature regulator on it, and it's well above freezing, it won't even cost the $35 a year (less temperature differential... see Newton's law of cooling).

In 10 years you may have given up homebrewing, before it's even paid for!

And that's just the financial standpoint.

If you want to get all environmental, what is the energy cost of producing the new one? Shipping it from China? (hey, I guess they take the manufacturing energy hit). What about recycling & disposing of the old one?

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle... personally, I think reuse should come FIRST.

Have a couple beers... watch this:

[dutchcanuck]

Derek,

I'm curious...what's your homebrew setup like? How did you put it together? I would be really curious to know how you, or other homebrewers, have sourced your setups. Did you guys make any mistakes? Or things you would do differently? Like sourcing a used freezer early on in your homebrew experience?

[icemachine]

I wouldn't buy a new freezer for a lagering system - I'd go kijijiji or such. I was talking the difference between getting a 20 year old freezer for free and a 3-5 year old one for $100 or so.

I work in automotive and I have no doubt scrapping a 15 year old car is horribly inefficient, the fuel savings alone will never make up for the energy cost of building a new vehicle. It was beneficial in that it pulled forward a number of sales from this year which meant while new vehicle sales declined dramatically they didn't crater and put hundreds, if not thousands of supply companies and hundreds of thousands more out of work.

[Derek]

I wouldn't buy a new freezer for a lagering system - I'd go kijijiji or such. I was talking the difference between getting a 20 year old freezer for free and a 3-5 year old one for $100 or so.

Yeah, that's probably the best value for the money, and what I'll eventually do. Right now I'm not lagering or kegging anything. I don't mind bottling, but it is a bit of a pain.

My 'system':

I started with a brewing 'kit' from the Real Canadian Superstore for $55. I made a MLT with a 5 Ga igloo cooler with an upside down collander for a false bottom. I picked up a set of stainless steel pots (5/4/3 & 2 Gallon I think) for around $25 total at Liquidation World. I think I bought a thermometer, thief and wing capper, but that was it. It was definitely under $150 to start all-grain brewing.

I slowly added more carboys etc... but I'm still using 2 pots on the stovetop (thankfully it's now a gas stove).

I finally made a new MLT this past year (I don't recommend the collander, or the little 5 Ga cooler). If you're going budget, use a stainless braid & batch sparge (you don't even need a tap to meter the flow, just an on/off clamp). This time I went the the 52qt coleman xtreme & made a copper manifold & bulkhead. It works nice, but people do just as well (or often better) batch sparging.

I'm still using all the other original equipment, though I just cracked my primary plastic pail (vigorous Dopplestick fermentation).

If I didn't have a gas stove, I probably would've taken it outside by now. That said, I typically brew more in the cooler weather, so I do see the appeal of the electric brewery.

[markaberrant]

If you want the most bang for your buck, and you want to make the best beer you can, this is what I would do:

1. Scrap the all-grain idea for now. Start with Festabrew and Brewhouse kits. They are very good kits, and I am a firm believer in minimizing the variables when one starts brewing. Master the basics first.

2. Scrap the kegging idea for now. Yes, it is great, but the start up cost is likely going to be over $200 just for the equipment, plus you'll need a dedicated fridge/freezer. Stick with bottling, stock pile used bottles and get a capper and some crowns.

3. Get 3 fermenters. This way, you can have 2 batches going, and still have one for bottling.

4. Get a small freezer/fridge and temp controller for fermenting, and an O2 system. When it comes to brewing processes, the most important are cleaning and sanitation (speaking of which, get some Oxyclean/PBW for cleaning, and Star San for sanitizing). The next most important are yeast health and fermentation temps. These are all absolutely critical, and 90% of beer flaws are caused by failure to master these processes. Yes, I know you want to jump into all-grain and kegging, just like every other new brewer, but kegging up crappy all-grain beer is nothing to get excited about.

5. Stick with dried yeast. Again, simple is better. Liquid yeast is finicky and requires a lot of prepping, whereas dried yeast just needs to be rehydrated 15-30 minutes before pitching.

This would be my advice to any new brewer.

After you master this stuff, I would suggest getting a big ass boil pot (at least 10 gallons), a wort chiller and something to boil with (ie; your electric heat sticks). This will allow you to move on to extract and extract with specialty grain batches where you will learn about hop schedules/varieties, what character different grains add, recipe formulation and getting your wort chilling process down.

Then, and only then, would I suggest building a mash tun and getting into all-grain.

And in the meantime, read www.howtobrew.com as much as possible. You seem like an "equipment" guy, which is certainly one side of the equation, but you need to know how to brew too!

[matt7215]

If you want the most bang for your buck, and you want to make the best beer you can, this is what I would do:

1. Scrap the all-grain idea for now. Start with Festabrew and Brewhouse kits. They are very good kits, and I am a firm believer in minimizing the variables when one starts brewing. Master the basics first.

2. Scrap the kegging idea for now. Yes, it is great, but the start up cost is likely going to be over $200 just for the equipment, plus you'll need a dedicated fridge/freezer. Stick with bottling, stock pile used bottles and get a capper and some crowns.

3. Get 3 fermenters. This way, you can have 2 batches going, and still have one for bottling.

4. Get a small freezer/fridge and temp controller for fermenting, and an O2 system. When it comes to brewing processes, the most important are cleaning and sanitation (speaking of which, get some Oxyclean/PBW for cleaning, and Star San for sanitizing). The next most important are yeast health and fermentation temps. These are all absolutely critical, and 90% of beer flaws are caused by failure to master these processes. Yes, I know you want to jump into all-grain and kegging, just like every other new brewer, but kegging up crappy all-grain beer is nothing to get excited about.

5. Stick with dried yeast. Again, simple is better. Liquid yeast is finicky and requires a lot of prepping, whereas dried yeast just needs to be rehydrated 15-30 minutes before pitching.

This would be my advice to any new brewer.

After you master this stuff, I would suggest getting a big ass boil pot (at least 10 gallons), a wort chiller and something to boil with (ie; your electric heat sticks). This will allow you to move on to extract and extract with specialty grain batches where you will learn about hop schedules/varieties, what character different grains add, recipe formulation and getting your wort chilling process down.

Then, and only then, would I suggest building a mash tun and getting into all-grain.

And in the meantime, read www.howtobrew.com as much as possible. You seem like an "equipment" guy, which is certainly one side of the equation, but you need to know how to brew too!

this is the best advise so far in this thread. in addition id highly reccomend going through the entire brewing process with a fellow homebrewer before you buy anything.

[dutchcanuck]

I have done BOP brewing before and LOVED it, just hated driving to hamilton to do All-Grain. And I have done extract with family. I have brewed about a dozen times...just not recently. But I do think your right Mark that it might be best to start small. I already have 6 cases of empties from my previous brewing experience. I just really hated bottling and loved the idea of having kegerator and having draft beer in my house. The only downside is i have no way to boil the wort in my basement, hence building heat sticks to get my brewery started.

But i REALLY appreciate the advice.

[markaberrant]

I have done BOP brewing before and LOVED it, just hated driving to hamilton to do All-Grain. And I have done extract with family. I have brewed about a dozen times...just not recently. But I do think your right Mark that it might be best to start small. I already have 6 cases of empties from my previous brewing experience. I just really hated bottling and loved the idea of having kegerator and having draft beer in my house. The only downside is i have no way to boil the wort in my basement, hence building heat sticks to get my brewery started.

But i REALLY appreciate the advice.

The basics I mentioned above are what I would consider a starting point for someone starting with nothing. I don't see the point in jumping in and investing a ton of cash, only to find you don't like the hobby/ don't have time for the hobby, or you get overwhelmed with so many new processes that you end up making bad beer and giving up.

What I've tried to lay out is a reasonable "starter" setup, with progressive add-ons to your processes/equipment.

When it comes to all things homebrew, it is great to have a long term plan, something to shoot for. Otherwise you end up haphazardly buying miscellaneous equipment, constantly changing processes, and brewing all sorts of weird beers that never quite turnout as intended.

[dutchcanuck]

I think its a great idea....and I am actually going to try a test batch or two of Festabrew just to ensure I can keep the sanitation under control and make sure every thing is in place. Then take the all grain plunge.

[markaberrant]

I think its a great idea....and I am actually going to try a test batch or two of Festabrew just to ensure I can keep the sanitation under control and make sure every thing is in place. Then take the all grain plunge.

Yeah, I was just going to add that every home brewery is slightly different. It takes awhile to get everything working properly, and just getting into routine and doing things automatically. I moved to a new house in Nov, and it takes a few batches just to get settled in, and then determine what processes/equipment need to be modified (I've mostly worked them out, still need a new garden hose and some hose fittings).

[dutchcanuck]

I read up on the festabrew and brew house products and I think that is an amazing way to start. Any idea what would happen if you tried to additional hops?

[matt7215]

I read up on the festabrew and brew house products and I think that is an amazing way to start. Any idea what would happen if you tried to additional hops?

the beer would taste better! one of my favs from last summer:

Magnotta Pale Ale kit
3rd generation Duvel yeast
2 oz Cascade dryhop

[Derek]

I've used the FestaBrew cream ale as a base even added extract:
http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic ... 04&start=0

It was pretty good, but the added extract didn't attenuate as well as I would have liked.

[dutchcanuck]

Do you guys have a preference between the brew house and the festabrew kits? Or they pretty equal in terms of quality?