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First all grain batch, black ipa, need some advice on grain

Post your own tasty recipes or homebrewing advice here.

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Ale's What Cures Ya
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First all grain batch, black ipa, need some advice on grain

Post by Ale's What Cures Ya »

Title says it all.

Was thinking of using maris otter, munich, and roasted barley.

Most black ipa recipes I've read call for carafa 3, but I'm interested in a roastier flavour than that'll give, and due to the advice of Mitch Steele I want to use the maris otter as the base and the munich as a sub for crystal.

Is this workable? Any suggestions? Hops are going to be 100% Columbus in the boil and then Citra/Columbus/something undecided for the dry hop.

Cheers.

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Post by grub »

you might consider a RB/carafa mix, lest it turn out too roasty. i always love maris as a base, and think crystal is often overused, so munich is a great idea. other than that, don't be shy on the late hops and it should be tasty.
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Craig
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Post by Craig »

I put Roasted Barley in mine. A little goes a long way.

I also use Coffee and chocolate malt, along with a little caramel and brown. Here's the partial mash recipe I use:

Size: 5.5 gal
Efficiency: 75.0% - Attenuation: 75.0%
Original Gravity: 1.073 (1.056 - 1.075) - Terminal Gravity: 1.018 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 19.35 - Alcohol: 7.24% - Bitterness: 103.6

Ingredients:
3 lbs American 2-row
8 lbs LME
0.5 lbs Caramel Malt 20L
0.5 lbs Brown Malt
0.5 lbs White Wheat Malt
0.5 lbs Belgian Aromatic
0.25 lbs Kiln Coffee Malt
0.5 lbs Pale Chocolate Malt
2 oz Roasted Barley

.5 oz Warrior (16.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.5 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
.5 oz Summit (17.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
.5 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
.5 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1 oz East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
1 oz East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 1 min

1.0 ea Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05

.5 oz Summit (17.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
.5 oz Mt. Hood (5.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 oz Cascade (5.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Mash Target: 150 °F - 75 min
Batch Sparge @ 175 °F, 10 min x 2

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Ale's What Cures Ya
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Post by Ale's What Cures Ya »

grub wrote:you might consider a RB/carafa mix, lest it turn out too roasty. i always love maris as a base, and think crystal is often overused, so munich is a great idea. other than that, don't be shy on the late hops and it should be tasty.
Okay, what kind of mix for carafa/RB, percentage wise?

Is using 100% maris otter for the base a good idea? Or should I throw something else in there? As for the munich, can I skip crystal altogether?

One last question, for a five gallon batch, aiming for the 7.5% ABV range, about how much of each grain do you think I'd need?

Probably going to use US-05.

squeaky: Were you happy with how that recipe turned out? Any tweaks you'd make?

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Post by Craig »

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote:
grub wrote:you might consider a RB/carafa mix, lest it turn out too roasty. i always love maris as a base, and think crystal is often overused, so munich is a great idea. other than that, don't be shy on the late hops and it should be tasty.
Okay, what kind of mix for carafa/RB, percentage wise?

Is using 100% maris otter for the base a good idea? Or should I throw something else in there? As for the munich, can I skip crystal altogether?

One last question, for a five gallon batch, aiming for the 7.5% ABV range, about how much of each grain do you think I'd need?

Probably going to use US-05.

squeaky: Were you happy with how that recipe turned out? Any tweaks you'd make?
I was very happy with it the first time I made it and so-so the second where I accidentally dry-hopped in the primary and didn't hit my gravity target.

It had a nice rich mouthfeel, a solid hoppy kick and plenty of depth from all the different malts and hops. It was fairly roasty, but if you're seeking that in particular you might want to up the darker malts a little.

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Post by atomeyes »

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote:
grub wrote:you might consider a RB/carafa mix, lest it turn out too roasty. i always love maris as a base, and think crystal is often overused, so munich is a great idea. other than that, don't be shy on the late hops and it should be tasty.
Okay, what kind of mix for carafa/RB, percentage wise?

Is using 100% maris otter for the base a good idea? Or should I throw something else in there? As for the munich, can I skip crystal altogether?

One last question, for a five gallon batch, aiming for the 7.5% ABV range, about how much of each grain do you think I'd need?

Probably going to use US-05.

squeaky: Were you happy with how that recipe turned out? Any tweaks you'd make?
guessing you're not using brewing software? :(

roasted barley's "typically" at 7% in stouts. so for a black IPA, i'd use 1/3 of that, unless you really want a roasty IPA, which, to me, doesn't sound overly appealing. then again, depends what kind of hops go in there. the tobacco/woody hops and roast could work together.

carafa special II or III would be what i would use. i wouldn't touch any other dark malts unless you really, really want that bitter flavour to come from non-hops.

Black patent, when used at 2-3%, will impart darkness, some roast, some bitterness and a bit of a black currant flavour. when making stouts, i'd do the 3% black patent and 7% roasted barley mix. works well for front of palate roastiness, followed by a back of palate dark finish with the hint of black currant.

munich is what it is. if i had to pick my 2 least favourite malts, it would be munich and vienna. just not a fan of what either contributes to beer, but hey, i'm usually not a fan of uber-malty beer. could see either working in a stout if you want the malt/toast factor.

i like using crystal in certain situations. for example, depending on your mash temp, i'd suggest some crystal 60 or 75 to give some toffee, residual sweetness and head retention. you don't need an insane amount. keep it at 5-7% and you're probably good.

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Post by grub »

no problem using maris as your base - it's what i use for anything english/american, some german. everything else (belgian, some german) is pilsner. no crystal is fine too - don't need much malty presence for a hoppy american brew, so a solid base like maris complimented by munich/aromatic is good. i like a little honey malt in my IPAs too.

i haven't made a black IPA yet, but I'd basically go with my standard IPA recipe and sub in some carafa until the colour is where i'd want. i don't generally like them roasty, but to get there i'd just back off a touch and put the RB or black in its place.

keep it a clean us yeast - wy1056 / wlp001 / wlp007 / US-05. I find the fruity character from a UK yeast just clashes with the hops - wrong kind of fruity to mix with it.

columbus is a nice assertive bittering hop, so you don't need to go overboard on IBU - keep it around 1:1 to 1.25:1 IBU to gravity ratio. then load up from 15min onward. for 5gal, about an ounce each at 15 (optionally) / 10 / 5, 2oz at 0 and dry (more if you like). if the hops are less than fresh, use more, and use the freshest stuff latest.

and if you aren't using brewing software, you should be. if you don't have one, i'd grab beersmith. i'm stuck on promash which hasn't been maintained in forever, but beersmith crashes constantly on linux. either one is free to download - promash only lets you save 5x or something before you have to buy. beersmith gives you 14 days or something. in either case you can delete its metadata and squeeze out a little more time, but with a pricetag under $25, it's worth every penny. beersmith also has phone/tablet versions too. grab one and play around with it. you'll be hooked in no time.
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Post by icemachine »

I like a bit of roast but not an overly large anount, so I use about 7% chocolate malt to 85% MO and 4% each of Munich and Carafoam.
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Post by atomeyes »

grub wrote:

and if you aren't using brewing software, you should be. if you don't have one, i'd grab beersmith.


this is apparently a killer spreadsheet. less flaws than BeerSmith.
i just started getting comfy tweaking my BeerSmith settings. plus, my laptop doesn't have Excel. if it did, i'd migrate to this spreadsheet.

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Post by J343MY »

I've brewed a black IPA or two, so I will add my input.

Some sort of debittered black malt is really what you want to use. Carafa special iii, Blackprinz, and midnight wheat work really well. Used at about 5-6% you will still get a slight touch or roast in the beer. If your are dead set on getting some more roast flavour, adding something like 2% roasted barley should work.

Obviously California ale yest will work well, but I will disagree with grub and say an english yeast like S-04 can work really well too (maybe better).

Also in my opinion black double IPAs (8%ish) work better then just black IPAs.

Oh, and make sure you dry hop the shit out of it.

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Post by Ale's What Cures Ya »

Thanks for the suggestions in this thread folks.

I bottled this beer on Good Friday and the whole time I was reminded of why I hate home brewing.

Based on the sample I had I doubt the beer is going to turn out to be even remotely worth the effort.

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Post by atomeyes »

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote:Thanks for the suggestions in this thread folks.

I bottled this beer on Good Friday and the whole time I was reminded of why I hate home brewing.

Based on the sample I had I doubt the beer is going to turn out to be even remotely worth the effort.
well, it's either due to your recipe or your brewing abilities. not to insult either of them, but that's what makes beer taste great or like shit.

i've made beer that i'd buy in a second. i've also made drainpours.

what was your final recipe?

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Post by Ale's What Cures Ya »

atomeyes wrote:
well, it's either due to your recipe or your brewing abilities. not to insult either of them, but that's what makes beer taste great or like shit.

i've made beer that i'd buy in a second. i've also made drainpours.

what was your final recipe?
No insult taken. I'm very much a rookie home brewer with less than 10 batches under my belt.

I'm not sure of the final recipe, don't have it written down, but it was 10 lbs of Maris Otter as the base malt, then some munich, midnight wheat, roasted barley and crystal 60 (I think 60 anyway).

Used something like 6 oz. of hops in the boil, with four at flameout and then dry hopped with 4 oz, 2 each of simcoe and amarillo.

Fermented with US-05.

My biggest issue with the batch so far was the absolute lack of aroma. I'd think 4 oz of simcoe and amarillo would make it smell hoppy but apparently not.

I ended up selling all my homebrewing equipment to a guy I know so this represents my last attempt at it.

I don't have the patience for it. Putting two days of work and six weeks of waiting just to find out I've brewed bullshit is a little much. I could just spend that time buying the beers I want instead of trying to make sloppy imitations.

I can see where homebrewing would have been downright necessary in Ontario as recently as 10 years ago, but now not so much. Plenty of commercial options readily available that will satisfy me.

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Post by Derek »

I think most homebrewers are guilty of mixing together too many ideas. You need to start with the basics, or someone else's fairly simple recipe.

It really isn't hard to make good beer. People tend to complicate it.

I brew beer to my taste, at considerably savings.

As for the Black IPA, I tend to agree that there's 2 camps... the 'Black' IPA and the Cascadian Dark Ale. Once you complicate the malt backbone, I say you're into CDA territory.

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Post by atomeyes »

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote:
atomeyes wrote:
well, it's either due to your recipe or your brewing abilities. not to insult either of them, but that's what makes beer taste great or like shit.

i've made beer that i'd buy in a second. i've also made drainpours.

what was your final recipe?
No insult taken. I'm very much a rookie home brewer with less than 10 batches under my belt.

I'm not sure of the final recipe, don't have it written down, but it was 10 lbs of Maris Otter as the base malt, then some munich, midnight wheat, roasted barley and crystal 60 (I think 60 anyway).

Used something like 6 oz. of hops in the boil, with four at flameout and then dry hopped with 4 oz, 2 each of simcoe and amarillo.

Fermented with US-05.

My biggest issue with the batch so far was the absolute lack of aroma. I'd think 4 oz of simcoe and amarillo would make it smell hoppy but apparently not.

I ended up selling all my homebrewing equipment to a guy I know so this represents my last attempt at it.

I don't have the patience for it. Putting two days of work and six weeks of waiting just to find out I've brewed bullshit is a little much. I could just spend that time buying the beers I want instead of trying to make sloppy imitations.

I can see where homebrewing would have been downright necessary in Ontario as recently as 10 years ago, but now not so much. Plenty of commercial options readily available that will satisfy me.
i mean, those are your feelings and i get it. hey, i just bottled my last beer. cleaned out 2 carboys, washed 50 bottles, etc. Hurt my neck in a swimming accident that day (summary: let my nephew use my head as a diving platform) and at the end of bottling, i was in agony. i was cursing.

but...it's all about the love and passion. like, why make dinner when i can order in?

in your case, my suggestion would have been simple. using a cooking analogy, you were basically grabbing fridge ingredients and tossing them in a pan without any real structure or method to it. for some people, it works. other people need to look at a recipe book and follow the instructions line by line.

so the first mistake you had was not having a true recipe worked out. you could have asked any of us on here to design one for you that would have given you good results.

the next thing i'd suggest is that the apparent lack of recipe structure would make me wonder how you were reaching goals, like sparge and mash temps. so there could have been issues there.

your recipe had a lot going on. probably too much. and that's a shitload of hops going in there at boil. not even sure what kind you used, but you were likely in super-astringent high-IBU territory.

just posting this because it sucks that you were discouraged and you got rid of your equipment. if you're ever in the mood, you're welcome to pop by on a summer day and see why homebrewing can be really enjoyable.

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