St. Lawrence festival report

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:48 pm

I had typed up a pretty long review of my visit this afternoon to the St. Lawrence festival, but my computer hiccupped or something and I lost it. So here, believe it or not, is a shorter point-form version...

1. Including a bottle of water in the "taster's package" is a great idea! I wish Fort York did the same thing.

2. Mill Street, Denison's & Scotch Irish were conveniently located right next to each other. Guess where I spent most of my time?

3. The Mill Street Tankhouse Pale Ale is OUTSTANDING! I think it is my new favourite local ale. (Note that I said "local", Perry.) PLEEEEASE get it in bottles soon, guys!

4. Magnotta Wunder Weisse is OK, but Denison's kicks its ass eight ways to Sunday. PLEEEEASE get it in bottles soon, Michael!

5. Surprise #1 of the show - Trafalgar is selling mead! Apparently they've been brewing it on contact for some medieval festival for years, but have just started to bottle it. Three flavours - black currant, blueberry & raspberry - available at the Beer Store. They had the black currant on tap, and it wasn't too bad.

6. There is no point 6.

7. Surprise #2 of the show - C'est What was there! I thought that they'd somehow gotten an exception to the stupid law that forbids brewpubs to sell off-site, but they'd actually used the fact that they contract brew at Country Durham as a loophole, and shared a booth with them.

8. Nice to see that the number of brewers attending continues to expand, with both newcomers (Mill St., Denison's) and old favourites (McAuslan, Creemore, Trafalgar).

9. REALLY nice to see that the least busy booths, at least this afternoon, were the "bigger" names like Amsterdam, Brick & Steam Whistle. People really seemed interested in trying new stuff. Mill Street had a line up six deep at one point (which was a lot considering how dead it was this afternoon), and almost everyone was getting the Porter or Pale Ale rather than the Lager. Excellent.

10. All in all, I'd say that the combination of better location, much cheaper prices and lack of The Big Three make this festival a much better venue than Fort York for exposing the general public to better beer. I hope that the organizers can keep it going with the same spirit & same prices for many years to come.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-06-13 23:49 ]

eternity · Post by **eternity** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:02 am

Does size really matter?

"REALLY nice to see that the least busy booths, at least this afternoon, were the "bigger" names like Amsterdam, Brick & Steam Whistle."

What's up with the constant negative remarks about "the bigger players"? I mean really.

Is there no respect for any brewers who seem to be growing their businesses? Why the constant put down?

We all live in one world. Why can we not all be at peace with each other and stop this petty stuff?

I love a variety of suds from many companies and regardless of their bottle shape, volume of production, sales increases, and profits (or losses), I judge the product and the product alone (and price).

So, what I am really trying to understand, is why this forum puts down anyone who isn't the runt of the litter?

Every brewer is trying to grow their business. For those that do, why not be happy for them?

Kid Presentable · Post by **Kid Presentable** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 10:37 am

mr eternity, I spoke with you yesterday and tried to get some points across, but I don't think you really got it. first of all, you said:

"What's up with the constant negative remarks about "the bigger players"? I mean really.

Is there no respect for any brewers who seem to be growing their businesses? Why the constant put down?

We all live in one world. Why can we not all be at peace with each other and stop this petty stuff?"

this is completely see through. stop trying to get a community of beer geeks to like your beer buddies show. it's not going to happen. I work for one of the beer buddies, and while he's a great chef and I have respect for him, he knows nothing about beer and I don't like the show.

you also said:

"So, what I am really trying to understand, is why this forum puts down anyone who isn't the runt of the litter?"

this community doesn't put down anyone who isn't the runt of the litter. the breweries that greg mentioned were the ones who are the most advertising driven, and least about good beer.

amsterdam, at one point was a quality brewer. then they changed their natural blonde ale to a lager, suggested serving all of their beers at close to freezing temperatures and changed their slogan from "amster'dam good beer" to "pure amsteredam".

brick, again, was once a good brewery, but now the anniversay bock is the only thing worth drinking, imho. when a brewery's selling points are a dark beer that tastes light(?), a stubby, and a plasitc bottle with a bigger mouth, you know they aren't about the beer.

steamwhistle is a pilsner in name only and would prefer to sell beer on good ads and a funky bottle rather than good beer.

now, I'm not saying I've never had anything good froma major brewer. beers from interbrew you probably haven't heard of like verboten vrucht, sam adams boston lager, fullers and youngs of england are both pretty big operations who make great beer. these, however, are rareties in canada and most of north america.

so you see, we don't put down breweries for being big, what we don't like are beer companies producing run of the mill macro crap(i.e. sleeman, the rickard's line, stella), and pretending it's great tasting craft brewed beer. if you think these are all great beers, you probably don't know much about beer and probably haven't tried a whole lot either so it would be good for you to hang around this site and try to learn something and check out other good beer sites like ratebeer.com and worldofbeer.com. not beer.com.

another thing you said was:

"I love a variety of suds from many companies and regardless of their bottle shape, volume of production, sales increases, and profits (or losses), I judge the product and the product alone (and price)."

until you have tried something from three floyds, dogfish head, kalamazoo bells, north coast, abbay de rocs, rochfort, westvleteren, cantillon, samuel smith, brakespear, denison's, the granite, scotch irish or any other great brewery don't pull the holier than thou crap with us and pretend that simply because you say you don't judge a beer by who makes it, you just might have something to teach to a whole community of beer lovers. don't say you're not doing that, because you're trying to change our minds and it's exactly what you're doing.

kp

[ This Message was edited by: Kid Presentable on 2003-06-14 11:32 ]

JerCraigs · Post by **JerCraigs** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:21 pm

The water was a great idea.. I only wish i had been smart enough to drink it. (My head was not liking me this morning.)

The Wunder Weisse was decent, and comparable to most German brews I have tried, but I agree that the Denison's is superior. I find Denison's leans (slightly) more towards a bananay/fruit flavour whereas the WW has more clove than I personally like.

Trafalgars mead was tasty, and much drier than I expected, which I liked. I look forward to trying the raspberry.

Personally I like the marketing Steam Whistle has done, especially the packaging. While i enjoy some of Bricks beers, I am less enamoured with some of Brick's latest campaigns. I am curious how they will fare with Mill St also offering stubbies now.

I think a major factor at St. Lawrence is attitude of the participants in addition to location. It feels like a lot more people are there to try new things, rather than just binge drink.

On 2003-06-13 23:48, GregClow wrote:
1. Including a bottle of water in the "taster's package" is a great idea! I wish Fort York did the same thing.
4. Magnotta Wunder Weisse is OK, but Denison's kicks its ass
5. Surprise #1 of the show - Trafalgar is selling mead!
6. There is no point 6.
7. Surprise #2 of the show - C'est What was there!
9. REALLY nice to see that the least busy booths, at least this afternoon, were the "bigger" names like Amsterdam, Brick & Steam Whistle.

10. All in all, I'd say that the combination of better location, much cheaper prices and lack of The Big Three make this festival a much better venue than Fort York

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-06-13 23:49 ]

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:58 pm

I think Kid speaks for us all!!!

rabbit · Post by **rabbit** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:01 pm

Beer buddies would be funny if it wasn't so sad...these guys are not helping further appreciation of good beer, they're making a mockery of it with their pathetic recipes which might as well call for pony piss than the beers they suggest...they wouldn't know good beer if you shoved a bottle up their collective fat asses.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 2:12 pm

I only managed a very brief stop down at the fest on Friday around 3pm (just after the rain stopped). Pretty quiet at that point but good for me as I only had an hour to visit and there were no lineups at all.

In regards to Eternity's comments; repectfully I don't think it's fair to say that this site and those that frequent it only support the runt of the litter. What we generally support is quality beer whomever it comes from. Everyone's tastes are different and some like certain beers that others find ordinary...so be it. I think the reason Amsterdam, Brick and Steam Whistle don't get a lot of praise here is because they generally don't make product worthy of it.

You also have to realise that there's a tenuous balance to be struck by craft brewers. If they get too large they run the risk of reduced quality control, the timidity of the local market forcing them into making more generic and hence profitable beer, and the ever nacent threat of takeover by a major brewer. Just about every micro brewery in North America that started out as a craft but was taken over by a major (Sleeman, Shaftsbury, Red Hook, Bowen Island...the list is endless) all ended up making inferior beers. So do we root for the underdog in a landscape dominated by bullies? Damn right we do...but the caviat is that they have to make good beer.

To be fair Mill Street wasn't a favorite of mine, nor did I champion them, when they were only making their one beer in picolo bottles but now that they have their other two legitimately appealing beers (both tasting great at the fest!) I'm on board and will snap some up as soon as it hits the LCBO. Amsterdam won't get a penny from me until they start lifting themselves out of mediocrity and the same goes for Brick. Steam Whistle...well they're a one trick pony and until they make some different styles of beer I won't be championing them either.

Regardless, great little festival down in St.Lawrence...lovely, civilized counterpoint to the Fort York debacle coming in a few weeks.

eternity · Post by **eternity** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:30 pm

Well...my discussion was not about Beer Buddies, but if you want to bring that into the equation, the booth was buzzing all day. The 220 racks of ribs made with Keith's and prepared and sponsored by Terra were delicious. The crowd loved them including the micro's. In addition, the Belle-Vue Kriek Chunky Cherry Beer Blaster cookies made and sponsored by The Cookie Store were also a big hit.

It seems you too may be missing the point. The Beer Buddies is not about beer it's about cooking with beer - and although some recipes may not be off the charts, others are.

I am saddened to see your sense of satisfaction in others failures and must assume you are but a very small minority of readers in this forum.

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:06 am

"eternity"...

Kid Presentable already posted a thorough response to your post that I pretty much agree with, so I repeat too much of what he already said.

However, since your post was a response to something that I wrote, I feel that I need to make at least a statement or two...

On 2003-06-14 01:02, eternity wrote:

"REALLY nice to see that the least busy booths, at least this afternoon, were the "bigger" names like Amsterdam, Brick & Steam Whistle."

What's up with the constant negative remarks about "the bigger players"? I mean really.

Is there no respect for any brewers who seem to be growing their businesses? Why the constant put down?

Your argument would hold more weight if you didn't take my original statement out of context. The sentence that you quote above was a lead-in to a much more important observation:

"People really seemed interested in trying new stuff. Mill Street had a line up six deep at one point (which was a lot considering how dead it was this afternoon), and almost everyone was getting the Porter or Pale Ale rather than the Lager. Excellent."

In other words, I was not putting down Amsterdam, Brick & Steam Whistle (at least not directly). I was stating that I was glad to see that people were avoiding the more familiar beers, at least for one day, in order to try beers that were new to them.

Regardless of how anyone might feel about the quailty of the beers brewed by those larger and/or better known breweries, you can't tell me that you don't like the idea of people trying new things - can you?

Every brewer is trying to grow their business. For those that do, why not be happy for them?

I am happy for breweries like Unibroue and McAuslan and Cameron's who have managed to build and grow their business without compromising or dumbing down their products in an attempt to appeal to the masses.

I also have no problem with breweries that use marketing gimmicks but still put the quality of the beer first. For example, Mill Street is going to be selling their Pale Ale, Sparkling Ale and Coffee Porter in stubbies - but they are all unique and good quality beers that are not aimed at the average flavourless pale lager drinker.

But I see no reason to feel goodwill for breweries like Sleeman and Brick have become successful by producing beers that are barely a step above Blue or Canadian and having the gall to sell them as "craft" or "premium" brews. And that are using gimmicks like stubbies and plastic bottles and clear bottles as the primary selling point of the beer.

I mean, look at Brick. While they've never been a spectacular brewery, they used to at least have a few good products in thier line, including the world-renowned Celis White. Now their main line features four pale lagers that are almost indistinguishable from each other, an "amber" lager and a "dark" lager that taste pretty much the same as the pale ones, and an "ale" that tastes like 50 but became successful primarily due to the bottle it came in. They also bought out Conner's, a brewery that produced some pretty decent beers, and then proceeded to kill off all but one of their products, and dumbed down the one that they kept.

And then there's Amsterdam. Yeah, their Nut Brown Ale is still pretty good, and they still brew a couple of interesting seasonals. But they've also dumbed down the Natural Blonde (changing it from a decent ale to a piss-poor lager) and the Dutch Amber, switched over to clear bottles, and launched a sexist ad campaign featuring women as prostitutes. Do you really expect me or any other serious beer drinker to applaud these moves?

As I believe someone else pointed out, most of the people here tend to root for the underdog and the little guy, not just in the beer world but in all things. I will not argue that it is impossible for a large brewery to make a unique beer. There are exceptions to every rule. But in general, small breweries tend to make beer that is more appealing to me, and I think the majority of the regulars here would agree with me on that.

Personally, I go out of my way to support small businesses as much as possible. Whether that means buying coffee from the co-op that sells fair trade beans that they roast themselves, or buying groceries from the organic delivery service that deals with local independent farmers, or buying my beer from the small brewery with a staff of three or four people who really, truly love what they do and put their heart and soul into every bottle and keg that leaves their brewhouse. If that means that I end up putting down the big guys in the process - well, that's just too fucking bad.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-06-15 00:10 ]

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:16 am

On 2003-06-14 23:30, eternity wrote:
It seems you too may be missing the point. The Beer Buddies is not about beer it's about cooking with beer

No, the Beer Buddies is an infomercial for Labatt/Interbrew. The fact that it involves cooking with beer is incidental.

If the main premise of the show was truly to create unique beer recipes, then they would be using unique beers.

I mean, on the episode dedicated to the "beers of Belgium", they made three dishes using Stella! Are you honestly suggesting that the main point of this show is not to sell more Labatt/Interbrew product?

If you're going to be a corporate whore, at least own up to it.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-06-15 00:17 ]

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:25 am

On 2003-06-14 13:21, JerCraigs wrote:
Trafalgars mead was tasty, and much drier than I expected, which I liked.

Yeah, it was quite nice. My wife in particular despises most fruity alcoholic beverages, but she likes fruit wines, and she in turn liked the mead quite a bit due to it's dry character.

Personally I like the marketing Steam Whistle has done, especially the packaging.

The retro festishist in me has been a sucker for their packaging and image since day one. I just wish they were using it to sell a decent beer. Given the family connection with the original Upper Canada brewery, I expected a good lager from them, not the watery fizzy yellow stuff that they ended up producing. Ah well.

While i enjoy some of Bricks beers, I am less enamoured with some of Brick's latest campaigns. I am curious how they will fare with Mill St also offering stubbies now.

I was talking to the Mill Street guys about this for a bit, and they had to admit that they hope the popularity of the Brick stubbies will spill over to their beers. But to be honest, I don't think it'll put too much of a dent in the Brick market share, since 95% of the people who buy their beer based on the packaging would probably find the flavours of the Pale Ale and Porter too much to take.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-06-15 00:28 ]

Kid Presentable · Post by **Kid Presentable** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:56 am

eternity, I don't want to constantly give you shit, because you seemed like a decent enough guy, just misinformed about beer, but what is up with this?

"I am saddened to see your sense of satisfaction in others failures and must assume you are but a very small minority of readers in this forum."

what the hell are you talking about? what satisfaction are we taking in who's failure? you're really groping for something here aren't you? I'll ask you again to cut out the righteous bullshit. we are a group of people who love good beer and I think I speak for the whole forum when I say that. we know cheap advertising for the big beer companies when we see it and really don't want a part in it. all you have done since you've been here is try to get us to accept macro crap as beer. I'm sure the ribs made with keith's from terra were great. steve is a great chef. the thing is, those ribs would have tasted just as good if you used apple juice instead of keith's. better yet, use a rauchbier. do you know what that is?. do you know why the rauchbier would be better than a lager(no, keith's is not an ipa)? I'll bet you stephen perrin or any of the beer buddies don't know either.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by insulting us for not accepting what you have to offer, and telling you why on top of it. like I said before, you have nothing to teach us about beer or the beer industry. and like I said before, if you want to learn something hang around this site.

kp

[ This Message was edited by: Kid Presentable on 2003-06-15 00:56 ]

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:56 am

Spent a couple of hours down at the Fest yesterday between about 5:30 and 7:30...by then is was hopping...good crowds for both the beer and the ribs...pigged out (no pun intended) on some great ribs and the worst cole slaw I've every had and some of the worst beans I've ever had (at the Purple Pig stand). Most enjoyed the Mill St. Pale, the Durham Triple X and McAuslan Oatmeal Stout (the latter probably because it does remind me a lot of Samuel Smith's great version)....the Front St. LCBO store had all the summer releases available including Dogfish Head Raison D'Etre in the cooler...afterwards I popped by the Esplanade Biermarkt and tried my first Raison (I'm the guy who sells it but I hate to admit, I'd never tried it)...absolutely stunning stuff...as I sell so much Belgian beer I can usually spot a North American version fairly quickly....this one is incredibly authentic and in a blind tasting I would certainly have pegged it as being from beyond the pond....man, eternity must be feeling pretty beat up today.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:07 am

As someone in the business, I can appreciate the efforts of Labatt's/Interbrew as they attempt to educate the unwashed masses about good/better beer....of course it's a shame when they start to tout something like Keith's or Stella as these beers obviously don't fall into that category....nothwithstanding their sometimes clumsy marketing schemes like beerbuddies or their TV documentary/infomercials, the more people who get turned on to products like Hoegaarden or Leffe or even Belle-Vue, the more converts we'll have who may also support other domestic and imported craft brews. Without question their efforts at marketing their specialtly Belgian imports have had a significant effect on the market...I can tell you this based upon our sales of Duvel and Chimay at the LCBO as well as the sales of our Consignment products. So, at the end of the day, there are still many things they do that bother me but they are also performing a service to the industry....imho.

Kid Presentable · Post by **Kid Presentable** » Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:27 am

point well made peter. the thing that bugs me though is the touting of stella and keith's and the like. the thing is, most people don't want to think for themselves, and if interbrew tells them that keith's is a traditional ipa, blue is a pilsner, belle-vue is a traditional lambic, etc. people are generally going to believe them. I don't disagree that hoegaarden and leffe are better than average beers and I'm sure some people might try these products and then move on to other beers, but I'm sure quite a few won't either. and I really don't think labatt/interbrew is trying to educate the unwashed masses about good beer. when they say to try a chistoffel or a prima pils instead of a blue I'll believe it.