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atomeyes wrote:
i don't get the argument that one should tip on top of tax. makes zero sense.
i do 15-20% pre-tax. alcohol at bars: usually $1/drink regardless of the drink's price, unless you're getting a cocktail that actually had skill going into it's production
I am with you on this. The bartender / server grabs the appropriate glass and pulls the right tap handle or opens the right bottle. The value of what is in the keg or bottle has no bearing on the difficulty of the job.
However, a $35 steak or an $8 burger both get carried the same distance from the kitchen to the table and I don't seem to have a problem tipping more on the steak than I do on the burger. Not really sure why I feel differently about drink tipping vs food tipping.
Truth be told, I would much rather pay a higher menu price and do away with tipping altogether. A server is having a lousy day, does a lush job ,gets paid less and their day just gets worse when they are already down. Higher tipping doesn't lead to better service as you are already done your meal.
Belgian wrote:
Theory A - servers will be bad whether or not paid well to begin with, aren't worth tipping decently and can only be 'disciplined' (yeah right) by tipping meagrely. Boy, what a 'lose-lose' deal there! You still pay nearly as much and don't get good service.
What if - Theory B - servers would be happier, have a higher morale and do better if they were paid better to start with - they would have less opportunity to be resentful, bitter and preoccupied with their self-interest in the transaction (removing the powerless humiliation of depending on your tip.)
The evidence for the negative theory does not outweight that for the positive one. Look at Costco and In 'n' Out Burger as examples that employers get more by giving.
See I am not so sure about that. It seems everytime we are in the US and go out for dinner, we get way better service then we do back home. In the US without tips, wages for servers are pretty much peanuts in a lot of states. So if they want to make decent money they have to rely on tips more than people in Canada do. To me that shows that this is pretty good motivation for giving good service.
Plus I also look at it this way. With a tipping system, if my experience at a restaurant is really bad my meal comes at a discount.
Kel Varnsen wrote: See I am not so sure about that. It seems every time we are in the US and go out for dinner, we get way better service then we do back home. In the US without tips, wages for servers are pretty much peanuts in a lot of states. So if they want to make decent money they have to rely on tips more than people in Canada do.
For the most part this has been my experience as well, and you have to wonder whether the vast discrepancy in wages accounts for this difference.
With respect to Canadian beer bars, I'm a little bit surprised that so many people on here claim to leave 15-20% "before" taxes. I've found that leaving anything less than 17-20% on top of taxes typically earns you the scorn of servers and all but guarantees shitty service on your next visit. Particularly at Toronto bars where service is less-than-friendly to begin with.
But if you guys are saying 15% before taxes is kosher and you're not treated like lepers for leaving that, I may start doing the same and save myself a whole lot of coin this year!
"Bar people do not live as long as vegan joggers. However, they have more fun." - Bruce Elliott
Belgian wrote:
Theory A - servers will be bad whether or not paid well to begin with, aren't worth tipping decently and can only be 'disciplined' (yeah right) by tipping meagrely. Boy, what a 'lose-lose' deal there! You still pay nearly as much and don't get good service.
What if - Theory B - servers would be happier, have a higher morale and do better if they were paid better to start with - they would have less opportunity to be resentful, bitter and preoccupied with their self-interest in the transaction (removing the powerless humiliation of depending on your tip.)
The evidence for the negative theory does not outweight that for the positive one. Look at Costco and In 'n' Out Burger as examples that employers get more by giving.
See I am not so sure about that. It seems everytime we are in the US and go out for dinner, we get way better service then we do back home. In the US without tips, wages for servers are pretty much peanuts in a lot of states. So if they want to make decent money they have to rely on tips more than people in Canada do. To me that shows that this is pretty good motivation for giving good service.
Plus I also look at it this way. With a tipping system, if my experience at a restaurant is really bad my meal comes at a discount.
This reminds me of something I heard from the owner of a top-tier craft beer bar in the U.S. at the CBC last year.
He said that on busy nights (Fri/Sat) he actually puts less staff on the floor - and the outcome is opposite of what you might think. The staff get more tips as there is fewer of them, take pride in busting their ass to get things done, and are more loyal as its a more lucrative gig than other bars. So he had an engaged staff with low turnover, and the staff wanted the busy nights. And from the reputation of the bar, consumers don't get shortchanged on service.
Obviously this was his own experience, but I suspect that kind of thing wouldn't work so well up here...
Further thoughts...
Tipping on the tax. IMHO, this makes no sense. You'd effectively be tipping less in places where the taxes were lower, and more wherever the taxes are higher. I don't think it should be tied to the governments grab.
Tipping $2 for a draft beer. That's a 25% tip on an $8 pint. Then at the other extreme, some people don't tip on drinks? Is there no standard social convention?
My tipping etiquette typically falls in line with the rest of the people here.
Where I get confused are places like WVRST where you pay when you order. Technically you haven't been served yet, so do you pre-tip? Leaving a tip on the table isn't really appropriate for a place like that either. I guess tipping works better in these places if you're a regular customer and have an idea of what to expect in terms of service.
I've never considering the food vs. drink discussion going on here before. When I was in high school I worked at a full serve gas station and would pump people's gas, clean their windows, put various fluids in their car, go inside to grab them a carton of cigarettes, check tire pressure and so on. We rarely ever got tips there, so because of that I've been reluctant to tip a bartender for simply opening a bottle of beer for me.
Tipping should not be included in the price. I want it left up to the guest how much they choose to leave, be it 10, 15, 20, or nothing at all if they feel that's fair.
I'm a bartender and I live off my tips. Sure my 8.95 wage is slightly higher than a US counter part, but you try living off $360/week, less taxes.
Anyone can get you beer, I've literally seen trained dogs fetch them from a fridge, and they're quick about it too. Granted they get tipped in treats, so even dogs know a job well done should be rewarded. But that's not why I get tipped. You tip me because we have discussions about the local beer scene and trends emerging in the craft beer market here and around the world. You tip me because I have insight into the menu (food, beer, wine, cocktail) about whether you want to try that new special or if it's something chef needs to push before it turns. You tip me because if you're from out of town I know the other cool spots to hit and who the bartenders are there that will take care of you. Or maybe you just want some friendly conversation instead of sitting in your hotel room. You tip me because the bar is a zoo, but you're still getting everything you need and I'm making sure that anything you want isn't getting lost in the shuffle. You tip me because it's Tuesday and I know you're ordering a Beau's before you sit down, and once you're seated, you're pint is already waiting for you.
I could go on, but the point is you're tipping for the hospitality of your host. If you sit at my bar and order a $42 bottle of Bretteuse or a $35 bottle of westy, I don't pour it and leave you alone. I'll give you some history and notes about it as I'm pouring it, discuss with you your thoughts on the beverage and talk about what memories and stories it inspires for you. Or, I'll just leave you alone to enjoy it if that's what you're looking for.
In Ontario especially, most beers that are being served at a bar you could have access to at your home for a smaller price tag. You don't come see me just for a beer. You come see me because I offer a lot more than a bottle in front of a screen.
Tip credit or cash, I don't have a preference, cash actually lets me walk out $$ in hand, credit I have to wait for the house to calculate it out and hand it over, but it's money all the same.
I don't scorn low tippers. My bar serves many patrons from Gatineau and Hull region that seem to tip 10%. Many of them are regulars because even though I know ahead of time I'm only getting 10% (maybe 12% if they're feeling generous) I treat them with respect and do my best to make sure that while they are my guest they want for nothing.
Most nights I walk out with a good chunk of change after tipping out my support staff (hostess, bar back, dish washer) and my kitchen (all of whom are tipped out on total sales, booze and food)
When I receive a large tip 20, 25 or higher (it happens more than you might think) I know you had a great time and everything was on point. If you tip me low, unless I know you and expect it (or you're 85+), I'm going to assume you had displeasure in some part of your service.
Lumping tipping into the price means that you can't as strongly communicate your thoughts on service (if pictures are worth a 1000 words, money is worth 10,000) and it means most good tippers will start to disappear as tipping is already included. I work hard to be at the top of my game and when I come to work I put whatever is going on in my life on hold, be it fights with a girlfriend, speeding tickets or what have you. I'm here for you. I rarely walk out with less then 20% at the end of a shift and I know that is a reflection my work ethic and that I earned that money. I'm proud of the fact that my work is being appreciated.
Just some insight from the other side. Good thread, I think healthy discussion on tipping practices is always beneficial for everyone.
I don't always drink beer ... because sometimes my friends win and we have to go to macro-only establishments.
cratez wrote:
With respect to Canadian beer bars, I'm a little bit surprised that so many people on here claim to leave 15-20% "before" taxes. I've found that leaving anything less than 17-20% on top of taxes typically earns you the scorn of servers and all but guarantees shitty service on your next visit. Particularly at Toronto bars where service is less-than-friendly to begin with.
I don't get the scorn. I would get it in the US, where my understanding is there is a pretty vast difference in minimum wage workers and non-minimum wage workers. But according to the ministry of labour, in Ontario the difference is that workers serving liquor earn $1.45 less per hour than the regular minimum wage. If you can't manage to make $1.45 per hour than there are lots of other minimum wage jobs that are always hiring.
What I don't see (and what all of you are grappling to find) is a firm correlation between customary tipping (To Insure Prompt Service) and better service as a result.
You've all demonstrated this by very good examples. In places where tipping is customary, the region to a large extent dictates whether the service is good or not. Where service (and even tax) is customarily included, it is still the region, not the payment arrangement that dictates whether service is good or not. If there's no regional competition, there may be little or no incentive to do better - tipping or no.
So 'tipping should not be included' remains a valid (qualifier: recipient's) opinion, although certainly not a fact. What remains a fact (and many of you seem to concur) is that tipping from a customer perspective is annoying, and in my experience service-included / tax-included is far less annoying (more 'civil' as well in my personal opinion.) Just skip the pomp and circumstance... I want to pay and go, not solve a stupid math problem I can often barely read. I objectively can't justify the glorified Great Institution of tipping with all the apparent chicanery sometimes involved (like those 'tipping machines for the mildly inebriated' that, like ripoff convenience ATMs appear slightly exploitive.) Yes I know it works for some people but that's how I see it from my side, Cheers.
Last edited by Belgian on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Belgian wrote:What I don't see (and what all of you are grappling to find) is a firm correlation between customary tipping (To Insure Prompt Service) and better service as a result.
You've all demonstrated this by very good examples. In places where tipping is customary, the region to a large extent dictates whether the service is good or not. Where service (and even tax) is customarily included, it is still the region, not the payment arrangement that dictates whether service is good or not. If there's no regional competition, there may be little or no incentive to do better - tipping or no.
So 'tipping should not be included' remains a valid (qualifier: recipient's) opinion, although certainly not a fact. What remains a fact (and many of you seem to concur) is that tipping from a customer perspective is annoying, and in my experience service-included / tax-included is far less annoying (more 'civil' as well in my personal opinion.) Just skip the pomp and circumstance... I want to pay and go, not solve a stupid math problem I can often barely read. Cheers!
The other thing I think worth mentioning, is that I get the sense, that a lot of servers would prefer to have a system where you make less as a base salary and then get tips (and could potentially have a really great night) rather than having a set wage, which would probably be much lower.
Kel Varnsen wrote:The other thing I think worth mentioning, is that I get the sense, that a lot of servers would prefer to have a system where you make less as a base salary and then get tips (and could potentially have a really great night) rather than having a set wage, which would probably be much lower.
No doubt it's a great opportunity if a very busy bartender or server can make several hundred or even a thousand a night on tips, cash. Tipping can be great purely from the recipient's side; you can declare a decent amount of those tips, and the remainder could represent a multiplication of your stated income, in the best case. Technically doing this 'income fudging' you are, like 'open-till' merchants, shifting the tax burden onto everyone paid solely via a payroll system - it's an economic vacuum that can't exist without many other people compensating for you. It's a screwy non-conventional way to get paid ("which will bring us back to Do...")
The other side is if servers have a rough year with poor tips, they are STILL expected to remit taxes for a PRESUMED minimum amount of cash tips they did not even earn - this is the government robbing from the poor.
