?? Food & beer prices should include tax / tip?

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Belgian
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?? Food & beer prices should include tax / tip?

Postby Belgian » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:27 pm

wilco wrote:(The Porter House) prices include taxes, which I personally like...

That's so neat!

If prices included service that would be great too. I like that in Germany, you basically only round up or at maximum include one more Euro; it's less of a big pretentious kabuki performance and more down to business (because who here in Ontario really pays less than 15% net, it's expected anyway.)

Just put that ^ in the price we pay, and save us the mental math after 3 beers which I have mistakenly f-cked up a few times or mis-read the net as the after-tax total (my poor eyes... why do they print receipts too faint to read and then turn all the lights off?)

Your 2 cents...
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Re: ?? Food & beer prices should include tax / tip?

Postby Craig » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:17 am

Belgian wrote:
wilco wrote:(The Porter House) prices include taxes, which I personally like...

That's so neat!

If prices included service that would be great too. I like that in Germany, you basically only round up or at maximum include one more Euro; it's less of a big pretentious kabuki performance and more down to business (because who here in Ontario really pays less than 15% net, it's expected anyway.)

Just put that ^ in the price we pay, and save us the mental math after 3 beers which I have mistakenly f-cked up a few times or mis-read the net as the after-tax total (my poor eyes... why do they print receipts too faint to read and then turn all the lights off?)

Your 2 cents...


Lots of people tip less than 15% net. It drives me nuts going to lunch with some of my coworkers, because for some reason they think that you're only expected to tip 10% on lunches. They all tip before tax too.

But I agree that in general I would prefer to have everything included. Not just for food/beverage, but why not include the sales tax in the price tag for everything?
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Postby FEUO » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:30 am

Tips % should be a reflection of service.
If it was to be included in the final bill I'd fear that service in some cases wouldn't be as great. That being said, 15% is a minimum (after tax)... its usually 20% on smaller bills.

10% (pre-tax) is just cheap.
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Postby Masterplan » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:32 am

I generally tip 15-20% on the food only, before tax.
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Postby lister » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:50 am

Masterplan wrote:I generally tip 15-20% on the food only, before tax.


Why on the food only?
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Postby Kel Varnsen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:47 am

FEUO wrote:Tips % should be a reflection of service.
If it was to be included in the final bill I'd fear that service in some cases wouldn't be as great. That being said, 15% is a minimum (after tax)... its usually 20% on smaller bills.

10% (pre-tax) is just cheap.


I give 10% or less if service is crappy. I fear the same thing. I find service at a lot of restaurants, at least in Ottawa isn't that great. If tipping were gone and the prices went up to accommodate, it would be even worse. Compare it to when we were in Burlington VT last fall. We went out to a few places, both chain and local places, and the service was a whole other level better than most places in Ottawa.
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Postby icemachine » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:14 pm

lister wrote:
Masterplan wrote:I generally tip 15-20% on the food only, before tax.


Why on the food only?


Considering the same effort is spent on a $1.50 glass of juice or a $6 bottle of beer, does it really make sense to tip 30 cents for the juice and $1.50 for the beer?

For good service I have no issue tipping 15% pre-tax and round it up to the nearest $, great service gets 20% or better.

I certainly feel no need to tip on the taxes.
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Postby atomeyes » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:38 pm

icemachine wrote:
lister wrote:
Masterplan wrote:I generally tip 15-20% on the food only, before tax.


Why on the food only?


Considering the same effort is spent on a $1.50 glass of juice or a $6 bottle of beer, does it really make sense to tip 30 cents for the juice and $1.50 for the beer?

For good service I have no issue tipping 15% pre-tax and round it up to the nearest $, great service gets 20% or better.

I certainly feel no need to tip on the taxes.


i don't get the argument that one should tip on top of tax. makes zero sense.
i do 15-20% pre-tax. alcohol at bars: usually $1/drink regardless of the drink's price, unless you're getting a cocktail that actually had skill going into it's production
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Postby lister » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:12 pm

I'm generally in the range of 18-20% pre-tax. 15% if service is very average and I'm likely never returning. For places I frequent regularly I'm usually 25-30% and I get service commensurate with that amount. At cash only pay per round places like T&M I generally tip $2 per.

In recent memory I left zero tip once a couple of summers ago. It was our first visit to Big Crow which is a BBQ place behind Rose and Sons. The food was great. The service however was awful. It appears we came near the end of our servers shift and he really couldn't wait to get the fuck out of dodge. I don't even think he handed us off properly to the next shift. The new server was a little shocked when she saw the CC receipt from the machine and I explained the shitty service.

In general for the life of me I don't understand crappy service at bars when the more I drink the larger the bill and the larger the tip. Even if it's only 15%.

I *HATE* tipping when I have to go up to the bar to get my beverage which I also hate doing. I'd rather have service come to me.
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Postby Tapsucker » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:37 pm

I prefer to tip before tax and am happy to be extra generous for great service.

What annoys me, however, is the portable terminals are programmed to calculate tip witt taxes in. It took me a while to discover that (my bad for just assuming they were set up according to customary behaviour).

I'll sooner tip a bad waiter than our government. :o
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Re: ?? Food & beer prices should include tax / tip?

Postby lister » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:50 pm

Belgian wrote:If prices included service that would be great too. I like that in Germany, you basically only round up or at maximum include one more Euro; it's less of a big pretentious kabuki performance and more down to business (because who here in Ontario really pays less than 15% net, it's expected anyway.)


I've done the no tip or service included thing in Taiwan, Tokyo and Europe. In Taiwan 99% of the time service sucks as expected though there are some exceptions. Tokyo was refreshing with good to great service. I think I left a little something for the guy at Club Popeye on our second visit that trip who humoured our English and provided an all-round nice experience there.

Two exceptions in Taiwan are two high end cocktail places, one in Tainan of all places and one in Taipei. Both would fit in with contemporaries in NYC, Toronto, etc but fairly significantly cheaper than say BarChef here. (Though they're expensive for the locals.) I'm not picking on BarChef. I like the place and usually go once or twice a year. I even splurged for the Smokey on my 40th birthday. Will likely do so again for my 50th. Fuck it. YOLO as the kids say. Anyways, I think I left tips at both places as we were well taken care of. Things got a little fuzzy late in the evening at the Taipei place. :P

Europe was interesting. I experimented at a craft beer pub in London where it was the middle of the day with next to no patrons. I tried tipping at the start to try to encourage staff to come to me rather than the usual custom of going to the bar (there was no bar seating.) That didn't work so I stopped. I know, I know, when in Rome... Bite me! I think the only other time I tipped was in Paris at a Brooklyn-ish inspired restaurant. After mostly indifferent to outright shitty service on our trip (I did my best in French and it was obvious we weren't Americans), the waiter at this particular place was excellent. The rest of our destinations were average.

One of these days when I'm on a tropical beach somewhere I'm going to put down a sum of currency that'll make the locals eyes bulge and say while I'm in that beach chair I don't want my glass to ever be empty. I don't want to get up other than to go into the water or take a leak. I don't combine the two, I'm not a heathen. :P And I don't care that the fish do it...
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Postby Kish84 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:48 pm

I generally do 20% on the pre-tax dollar amount and round up/down to the nearest dollar on the post-tax amount.
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Postby JeffPorter » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:02 pm

Kish84 wrote:I generally do 20% on the pre-tax dollar amount and round up/down to the nearest dollar on the post-tax amount.


This is generally me - though I have to admit lately, I just do 20% on the entire bill if it's in the lower range. So for a $20 bill, I'll tip 4 bucks, but probably wouldn't tip $40 on a $200.

If I'm going in for one or two beers - I generally tip 1-2 bucks a beer.

In terms of the original post - I believe Bellwoods includes tax (?)
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Postby Belgian » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:11 pm

Tapsucker wrote:What annoys me, however, is the portable terminals are programmed to calculate tip with taxes in. It took me a while to discover that (my bad for just assuming they were set up according to customary behaviour).

Was hoping you'd mention this. Pre-programmed percentages 15% 20% 25% - on totals tax IN, the spoiled buggers, like those are 'your options'. The staff at gusto seem to have that worked out as part of their act, a whiff of chicanery to it - and they seem rather disappointed when I ask to pay cash instead, LOL.
icemachine wrote:
lister wrote:
Masterplan wrote:I generally tip 15-20% on the food only, before tax.

Why on the food only?

Considering the same effort is spent on a $1.50 glass of juice or a $6 bottle of beer, does it really make sense to tip 30 cents for the juice and $1.50 for the beer? ...
I certainly feel no need to tip on the taxes.

In practice I tip a little on alcohol on food bills, more if I'm not ordering much - but I support Masterplan's thinking and know people who do that.

Runaway tips only get worse, eg. with better wines when you have the restaurateur's markup OVER retail AND the huge taxes they paid on the retail!! Tipping ten or twenty on one bottle seems out of control. There should probably be a decent tip on food (never skimp), and a small amount added for drinks per serving or per person.

Exponential tipping costs fit exactly the point of 'why isn't it in the price?' (Rhetorical question, we know the answer is 'because that would be true advertising.')

When I say 'never skimp' on a tip, I've also heard of people leaving five cents to make a point. Ooh burn!
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Postby Belgian » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:33 pm

Kel Varnsen wrote:
FEUO wrote:Tips % should be a reflection of service. 10% (pre-tax) is just cheap.

I give 10% or less if service is crappy. I fear the same thing. I find service at a lot of restaurants, at least in Ottawa isn't that great. If tipping were gone and the prices went up to accommodate, it would be even worse.

Theory A - servers will be bad whether or not paid well to begin with, aren't worth tipping decently and can only be 'disciplined' (yeah right) by tipping meagrely. Boy, what a 'lose-lose' deal there! You still pay nearly as much and don't get good service.

What if - Theory B - servers would be happier, have a higher morale and do better if they were paid better to start with - they would have less opportunity to be resentful, bitter and preoccupied with their self-interest in the transaction (removing the powerless humiliation of depending on your tip.)

The evidence for the negative theory does not outweight that for the positive one. Look at Costco and In 'n' Out Burger as examples that employers get more by giving.
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