Ontario's beer scene in 2015: discussions

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Craig
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Postby Craig » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:29 am

atomeyes wrote:
midlife crisis wrote:
atomeyes wrote:Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?


Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.


http://bensbeerblog.com/2015/01/20/ston ... o-ontario/

as you were saying? :)


Nothing in that article says the LCBO is going to play ball. It just says the trucks from the US will be refrigerated. Sounds to me like Stone is rolling over on the refrigerated storage thing and Horizon is taking on some risk for old kegs.
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Craig
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Postby Craig » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:32 am

It's interesting to learn what the pricing will be like. 8 bucks for a bomber of Stone IPA or 6 for a bomber of Lake Effect. That's a decent sized price gap.
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:30 pm

Craig wrote:
atomeyes wrote:
midlife crisis wrote:
atomeyes wrote:Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?


Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.


http://bensbeerblog.com/2015/01/20/ston ... o-ontario/

as you were saying? :)


Nothing in that article says the LCBO is going to play ball. It just says the trucks from the US will be refrigerated. Sounds to me like Stone is rolling over on the refrigerated storage thing and Horizon is taking on some risk for old kegs.


you are right.
that article does not detail the LCBO's practices nor what Stone plans on doing with bottles.
but if you think that Stone's moving in here to sell draught at a few bars, you're fooling yourself.

oh, and know who has great refrigeration? The Beer Store.

(just put 2 and 2 together regarding everything that's happening lately and our market opening up....)
Last edited by atomeyes on Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sprague11 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:38 pm

Was just going to ask about the viability of Stone (or SN, or whomever) having some type of agreement with TBS with refrigeration or potentially more favourable warehouse to storefront turnover times being factors.
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:38 pm

Craig wrote:It's interesting to learn what the pricing will be like. 8 bucks for a bomber of Stone IPA or 6 for a bomber of Lake Effect. That's a decent sized price gap.


it's approximately... two dollars.
it won't stop anyone from buying Stone.
if you're shopping for a bottle of wine and bottle A is $13 but bottle B is $16 is people are hyping it, which will you choose?

people have to stop thinking about beer as a discount beverage. it clearly isn't. $1 extra per 330 mL bottle is complete insignificant to most consumers who are looking at buying craft beer. if people are using that $1/330 mL to drive their purchases, they're buying Lucky or Wildcat at TBS

sprague11 wrote:Was just going to ask about the viability of Stone (or SN, or whomever) having some type of agreement with TBS with refrigeration or potentially more favourable warehouse to storefront turnover times being factors.


as I said in the TBS thread, I don't think people understand the behind-closed-doors and lobbying aspect of things like TBS and big players like Stone.

governments almost NEVER act in the best interest of their citizens. they act in the best interest of VOTES that will keep them in power or act in the best interest of DOLLARS (either tax dollars or donations to their party).

the only reason that TBS is being looked at it due to the Ontario government having an awfully consistent habit of pissing away tax money and not balancing the budget. They need more money and are sort of realizing that the optics of the back-door donations to their political party is bad when our economy is sputtering and our debt is skyrocketing to Greece-like proportions.

The Liberals do not care about beer selection and do not care about our "experience" at TBS. they care about revenues. for all we know, the Ed Clark and the government were approached by Stone, SN and possibly some Canadian options to talk about buying large shares in TBS, making it a co-op for beer distribution. open up the co-op, let the government take a percentage of the share purchase price, keep the Big Three with a partial ownership stake and let them continue distributing beer to local bars and restaurants and all of the problems are solved. sell more expensive beer at TBS and you increase your tax revenue. a 24 of Bud vs a 24 of SN Pale Ale? i'm guessing you're talking about a 50% increase in tax revenue in that case.

Keep TBS "unprofitable" but allow it to distribute for the masses. Have the masses pay the government, not TBS, for shelf space. Everyone wins (except for the microbrewer who can't meet the volume demands or afford to buy shelf space).

but yeah, the Ont government knows what they're about to do with TBS. they've known for a while. their lawyers are negotiating with TBS's legal team to allow a fair transition and they're likely figuring out the funding model to make the government happy. Every nugget we get via the media is simply to check public opinion so the government can spin this is the best possible way.
Last edited by atomeyes on Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Craig
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Postby Craig » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:43 pm

atomeyes wrote:
Craig wrote:It's interesting to learn what the pricing will be like. 8 bucks for a bomber of Stone IPA or 6 for a bomber of Lake Effect. That's a decent sized price gap.


it's approximately... two dollars.
it won't stop anyone from buying Stone.
if you're shopping for a bottle of wine and bottle A is $13 but bottle B is $16 is people are hyping it, which will you choose?

people have to stop thinking about beer as a discount beverage. it clearly isn't. $1 extra per 330 mL bottle is complete insignificant to most consumers who are looking at buying craft beer. if people are using that $1/330 mL to drive their purchases, they're buying Lucky or Wildcat at TBS


Lots of people who post here would complain about that extra dollar price difference and say it drives their purchases.
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Postby saints_gambit » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:49 pm

atomeyes wrote:
Craig wrote:It's interesting to learn what the pricing will be like. 8 bucks for a bomber of Stone IPA or 6 for a bomber of Lake Effect. That's a decent sized price gap.


it's approximately... two dollars.
it won't stop anyone from buying Stone.
if you're shopping for a bottle of wine and bottle A is $13 but bottle B is $16 is people are hyping it, which will you choose?

people have to stop thinking about beer as a discount beverage. it clearly isn't. $1 extra per 330 mL bottle is complete insignificant to most consumers who are looking at buying craft beer. if people are using that $1/330 mL to drive their purchases, they're buying Lucky or Wildcat at TBS

sprague11 wrote:Was just going to ask about the viability of Stone (or SN, or whomever) having some type of agreement with TBS with refrigeration or potentially more favourable warehouse to storefront turnover times being factors.


as I said in the TBS thread, I don't think people understand the behind-closed-doors and lobbying aspect of things like TBS and big players like Stone.

governments almost NEVER act in the best interest of their citizens. they act in the best interest of VOTES that will keep them in power or act in the best interest of DOLLARS (either tax dollars or donations to their party).

the only reason that TBS is being looked at it due to the Ontario government having an awfully consistent habit of pissing away tax money and not balancing the budget. They need more money and are sort of realizing that the optics of the back-door donations to their political party is bad when our economy is sputtering and our debt is skyrocketing to Greece-like proportions.

The Liberals do not care about beer selection and do not care about our "experience" at TBS. they care about revenues. for all we know, the Ed Clark and the government were approached by Stone, SN and possibly some Canadian options to talk about buying large shares in TBS, making it a co-op for beer distribution. open up the co-op, let the government take a percentage of the share purchase price, keep the Big Three with a partial ownership stake and let them continue distributing beer to local bars and restaurants and all of the problems are solved. sell more expensive beer at TBS and you increase your tax revenue. a 24 of Bud vs a 24 of SN Pale Ale? i'm guessing you're talking about a 50% increase in tax revenue in that case.

Keep TBS "unprofitable" but allow it to distribute for the masses. Have the masses pay the government, not TBS, for shelf space. Everyone wins (except for the microbrewer who can't meet the volume demands or afford to buy shelf space).

but yeah, the Ont government knows what they're about to do with TBS. they've known for a while. their lawyers are negotiating with TBS's legal team to allow a fair transition and they're likely figuring out the funding model to make the government happy. Every nugget we get via the media is simply to check public opinion so the government can spin this is the best possible way.


You hold their competence in higher esteem than I do.
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atomeyes
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:57 pm

Craig wrote:
Lots of people who post here would complain about that extra dollar price difference and say it drives their purchases.


to be frank (d'angelo??), after talking to a number of local brewers, the complaints voices by BarTowel posters range from "maybe he's got a point" to "that loon is completely out to lunch", with the median closer to the latter point.

The Beer Store doesn't cater to US. pictures of a demon on a bottle and a name like "Arrogant Bastard"? know how many dudes will be buying that?
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:01 pm

saints_gambit wrote:You hold their competence in higher esteem than I do.


it's not competence. the government needs money. they've begged Ed Clark to find them money. as i've stated, for all we know, Ed's already laid the groundwork for US breweries to come over and take ownership of part of TBS. hence that wimpy offer by TBS 2 weeks ago.

the Liberals are whores at this point and will let Mr Clark canoodle with everyone and anyone in order to get them monies while still retaining control over Ontario's alcohol sales.

Clark likely showed the government a simple graph showing beer sales in the US and translated that to Ontario's potential ceiling and increased revenue if TBS was shattered. This is a photo of Wynne looking at the graph.

Image
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Postby toweringpine » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:29 pm

atomeyes wrote:
Craig wrote:It's interesting to learn what the pricing will be like. 8 bucks for a bomber of Stone IPA or 6 for a bomber of Lake Effect. That's a decent sized price gap.


it's approximately... two dollars.
it won't stop anyone from buying Stone.
if you're shopping for a bottle of wine and bottle A is $13 but bottle B is $16 is people are hyping it, which will you choose?

people have to stop thinking about beer as a discount beverage. it clearly isn't. $1 extra per 330 mL bottle is complete insignificant to most consumers who are looking at buying craft beer. if people are using that $1/330 mL to drive their purchases, they're buying Lucky or Wildcat at TBS


I can't speak for everyone but I can assure you that you are wrong in at least some cases. I really don't drink that much. I looked at my family finances a couple years ago and realized that my love of good beer was financially out of proportion with my income. I still enjoy only better beers but I certainly look at the price on each bottle. A $2 difference in the price of a bomber is frequently the deciding factor in what I purchse. I usually set a $20 limit in my head and can usually grab a six pack of something plus a 500 ml or a bomber and keep it under the cap.

I don't spend my small beer budget on crappy beers just so I can get more of them but I don't spend my whole budget on one or two bottles either.
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:01 pm

toweringpine wrote:
I can't speak for everyone but I can assure you that you are wrong in at least some cases.


well, of course i am wrong in SOME cases.
I really don't drink that much.


you're already an exception and not the rule. :)

I don't spend my small beer budget on crappy beers just so I can get more of them but I don't spend my whole budget on one or two bottles either.


so you weren't one of the people buying the Westy XII bricks at the LCBO or calling for Utopias, correct?

you're not Stone's target audience. Stone is interesting. targets beer geeks and brahs. they won't mind the extra $1-2
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Postby toweringpine » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:43 pm

atomeyes wrote:
toweringpine wrote:
I can't speak for everyone but I can assure you that you are wrong in at least some cases.


well, of course i am wrong in SOME cases.
I really don't drink that much.


you're already an exception and not the rule. :)

I don't spend my small beer budget on crappy beers just so I can get more of them but I don't spend my whole budget on one or two bottles either.


so you weren't one of the people buying the Westy XII bricks at the LCBO or calling for Utopias, correct?

you're not Stone's target audience. Stone is interesting. targets beer geeks and brahs. they won't mind the extra $1-2


If I could buy a sixer of Stone IPA for the $12-$14 that most craft is selling for at the LCBO I would certainly be putting them into the rotation of what I pick up most Friday nights. I have bought plenty of their offerings on the occasional trip down to Buffalo. Perhaps I am not exactly their target audience but I am not sure about that.

I am not interested in buying Uptopia and I made no effort to get the WestyXII even though it seemed to linger at the store in Hamilton very lose to my in laws. I could easily have picked some up but I wasn't interested in it. I have had it at a Beer Bistro dinner, it was tasty and all but not worth a tihrd of the price ( in my opinion only of course ). I have not tried the Utopia but I could see getting a taster of it somewhere if I felt in the mood but I have little or no use for alarge bottle of extremely potent beer.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the term of 'craft' has gotten too big for all that it emcompasses.

Maybe I got my back up a bit over the assumption that if one looks at the price tag then they must only drink Wildcat. Perhaps we should discuss it over a beer or two one day, you can pick up the tab ;)
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Postby atomeyes » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:00 pm

toweringpine wrote:I am not interested in buying Uptopia and I made no effort to get the WestyXII


so yeah. you're not those 2 breweries' target audiences. :)
companies like Stone spend $$ figuring out profitability, pricing, etc. I think they'll do well in bottles. on draught long-term? who knows. initially? yes.
As I said in an earlier post, I think the term of 'craft' has gotten too big for all that it emcompasses.

it was always a bullshit term. Trafalgar's craft beer. it ain't good. Goose Island once was, but no more, but their offerings are still great. so who cares.

Maybe I got my back up a bit over the assumption that if one looks at the price tag then they must only drink Wildcat. Perhaps we should discuss it over a beer or two one day, you can pick up the tab ;)


i don't even buy my wife beer.
:)
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Postby toweringpine » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:29 pm

atomeyes wrote:
toweringpine wrote:I am not interested in buying Uptopia and I made no effort to get the WestyXII


so yeah. you're not those 2 breweries' target audiences. :)
companies like Stone spend $$ figuring out profitability, pricing, etc. I think they'll do well in bottles. on draught long-term? who knows. initially? yes.
As I said in an earlier post, I think the term of 'craft' has gotten too big for all that it emcompasses.

it was always a bullshit term. Trafalgar's craft beer. it ain't good. Goose Island once was, but no more, but their offerings are still great. so who cares.

Maybe I got my back up a bit over the assumption that if one looks at the price tag then they must only drink Wildcat. Perhaps we should discuss it over a beer or two one day, you can pick up the tab ;)


i don't even buy my wife beer.
:)


LOL

Maybe we hav found part of the reason your beer budget is larger than mine. I'll buy a ( reasonably priced ) round if we meet up one day.
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Postby S. St. Jeb » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:17 pm

Hamilton’s craft beer industry growing despite hurdles

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/ ... -1.2920203

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