Ontario's beer scene in 2015: discussions

[lister]

So much hinges on how the coming LCBO/TBS shakeup plays out. If we get private beer retailers (I know, dream on) we might see all kinds of people who previously said no way to the market showing up.

That depends on if the LCBO would play middle man and still have all their stupid hoops to deal with beyond the retail stuff.

[Belgian]

I agree that the continued introduction of new and possibly better/flashier products may continue to pressure our home market's own products to diversify and improve, but of course the "beer cognoscenti" don't represent the whole market. People that really "get" beer on a pretty sophisticated level are far from being the majority, therefore even the somewhat middling Ontario and Toronto area Brewers may continue to thrive in serving a very mixed beer purchasers market.

So perhaps the marketing of good new USA micros in Ontario may be as much a driving force as the quality of these micros which, not coincidentally, happens to be of a certain high bar in the first place to create the brand reputation in the American home market. These beers may therefore sell well here for both reasons. And the clever marketing of these excellent beers will introduce a lot of new people to a higher level of quality.

So no panic. All the introduction of eg. good imported IPAs has done has encouraged and spurred on our own local production to do much better and to feel very safe in trying more diverse things. This situation did not exist here 10 years ago.

[midlife crisis]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

I'm not convinced that the name appeal of guys like Stone or SN is as strong as you might think up here. For people into craft beer, sure, absolutely. But selling beer in Ontario is still a mass-market gig and I think the appeal of local is still quite a bit stronger than the appeal of the big craft guys from the US for most of the market. It will probably put a bit of a squeeze on the number of craft taps available to locals in craft pubs around Ontario, but I doubt it will have much of an impact on local support for brewpubs or small brewers.

I agree with this. We may like these beers as beer geeks, but I predict their impact on the overall marketplace will be relatively insignificant.

[liamt07]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

[instantkamera]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

Which means we wont get any once he finds out how we do things here...

[atomeyes]

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

Which means we wont get any once he finds out how we do things here...

i don't think you grasp the business side.

i've heard that the LCBO's now willing to bend over backwards to have Cantillon in Ontario. this is after they denied the kriek order a decade ago.

Stone pulled in $136 million in revenue in 2013 and their sales grow annually. it's the 17th largest brewery overall.
if they want to be in Ontario, it's for a calculated reason.
they will also make it worthwhile for the LCBO.
so yes, the LCBO may play ball. and if they do, it may be due to someone pointing out to them how they do things incorrectly. the 'BO understands wine but it's become apparent that, over the last few years, they're starting to understand the value of beer sales a bit more.

[midlife crisis]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

Greg Koch can have any stance he wants on beer freshness. The fact is, he does not command the potential sales or market clout to make an organization as bureaucratic and intransigent as the LCBO fundamentally alter their storage and distribution practises just to suit him. His annual sales were $136 million? Diageo's were $15 billion.

[toweringpine]

I suspect "craft" beer may end up going through a name change. As of now it encompasses Stone and their $136M in revenue as well as a start up with two brews and three draft accounts. Blonde lager, stout and IIPAs are all thrown together as craft as long as they were not made by Molbatts. Different people are looking for different things but now they are all given the same heading. It may be impossible to even start having a discussion on where craft is heading in Ontario without having a starting place. There are too many new breweries and too little shelf space at the LCBO for all of them to get even one beer in there. Whatever changes are made to TBS it will not be the model that gets Whitewater Brewing from Foresters Falls to the Toronto market and I am not sure they want to sell it here anyways.

Often after the revolution comes the factions that were fighting together end up bickering over how to reorganize. All in all these are not bad problems to have

[Kish84]

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

I was talking to the rep for Stone a month or two ago (Horizon is the agency bringing it in) I believe he said once the keg is either passed 3 or 4 months old, it can no longer be served.

[saints_gambit]

Stone is coming. Sierra Nevada is coming. The reason that they are broaching the market is because they are expanding to bi-coastal operations.

You gotta understand that total Craft volume in the states is something like what, 12 million barrels? Half of that is Sam Adams. You've got about six of the next biggest operators doubling their volume over the course of a year. They're going to be in Asheville and Richmond and (in the case of Lagunitas) Chicago. New Belgium is coming. Oskar Blues is coming. All we can do is pray they buy into The Beer Store and don't take up LCBO shelf space from the local producers. We've reached a weird point where an element of The Beer Store's model that was economically protectionist isn't anymore.

[Craig]

Stone is coming. Sierra Nevada is coming. The reason that they are broaching the market is because they are expanding to bi-coastal operations.

You gotta understand that total Craft volume in the states is something like what, 12 million barrels? Half of that is Sam Adams. You've got about six of the next biggest operators doubling their volume over the course of a year. They're going to be in Asheville and Richmond and (in the case of Lagunitas) Chicago. New Belgium is coming. Oskar Blues is coming. All we can do is pray they buy into The Beer Store and don't take up LCBO shelf space from the local producers. We've reached a weird point where an element of The Beer Store's model that was economically protectionist isn't anymore.

If anything it's going to go from protectionist to benefiting foreign producers at the expense of small local startups. Foreign producers other than the 3 that own it I mean, it's obviously been doing that for ages. What I mean is it makes more sense for an operation like Stone to come in and just pay the listing fees all over to get the proper distribution and transportation to all the areas it thinks is worthwhile than it would for an Ontario brewer 1/100th the size.

[atomeyes]

Oskar Blues is coming.

i just pooped myself.

TenFiddy all the fucking time? Liver-based gods, help me.

[atomeyes]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

http://bensbeerblog.com/2015/01/20/ston ... o-ontario/

as you were saying?

[Kel Varnsen]

I agree with this. We may like these beers as beer geeks, but I predict their impact on the overall marketplace will be relatively insignificant.

I can see Stone being more of a specialty product, because that is kind of how they brand themselves, with Arrogant Bastard and their products not being for everyone and that sort of thing. But I can see Sierra Nevada selling like crazy. I mean SN Pale Ale is the best selling Craft Ale in the US. The only other "craft beer" that sells more is Boston Lager. I have a cousin who isn't a huge beer guy, but every time he travels to the US he picks up a case of their pale ale. With some decent marketing they could do really well I think.

It's evident you've never watched/read an interview with Greg Koch regarding his stance on beer freshness. He's extremely adamant about only selling to distributors who will refrigerate his beer, and has no issue cutting ties with ones who don't abide by his standards.

Sierra Nevada has similar policies, as I have been told when I emailed them about some way out of date beer I found in Watertown. That said I am not sure how strictly they enforce it since last time I was in Ogdensburg (about a week ago) there was a store selling Summerfest.

[liamt07]

Stone is coming. SN will likely be coming. both will demand that the LCBO treat their beer with respect (i.e. fridges, immediate shipment to stores). will the LCBO play ball?

Are you kidding? Not in a million years. Any impact that Stone, SN or Founders might make in this market will be a drop in the bucket when looked at from the perspective of total LCBO beer sales, let alone total LCBO sales of all products.

http://bensbeerblog.com/2015/01/20/ston ... o-ontario/

as you were saying?

Boom. Nailed it. Thanks for the link.