Atwater and Redhook coming to Ontario

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Ale's What Cures Ya
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Postby Ale's What Cures Ya » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:15 pm

FEUO wrote:
Stone is a joke.


There's the cue to stop reading. I will say though that Greg Koch is great. Love the guy.

TheSevenDuffs wrote:
That's fair. As I re-read my post, it was not all that clear and the wording was poor.

My honest opinion is this:
- We are getting Stone in Ontario because they've exhausted their American growth
- Stone isn't exactly a cutting edge brewery that beer geeks covet. They do make solid beer and are certainly not a bottom-tier brewery, but in many ways they do qualify as a mid-tier brewery in terms of overall beer quality and creativity.
- Sierra Nevada is basically the same as Stone in both respects, but I would argue that the overall portfolio of SN is somewhat more interesting than Stone's. That, of course, is for my palate.

Another comment: to your point about bringing back lots of Stone on beer runs to the US. I am curious to see if that starts to change, especially given how much better beer distribution in WNY has become. Two years ago, I would load up on Stone in Buffalo. A year ago, I would still get a bunch. Over the past 6 months, I may grab a bomber of Enjoy By and that's it.

Interestingly, this serves as another example of how the beer you buy is all relative to the other choices. At one time, Stone was one of the best in Buffalo, Now, with the likes of Founders, Bell's, AleSmith, Prairie, Jack's Abby, Maine, FW, Crooked Stave and The Bruery all entering WNY within the past 18 months, the beer scene there has changed so much that Stone has become less desirable to many (myself included).

But Ontario is a long way away from that point...


I agree that Stone has most likely exhausted it's American market growth. Not sure if that is a bad thing though. They did 136 million in revenue in 2013, that seems pretty good to me. Plus I believe, and always have, that the craft beer market is finite. There are only so many people willing to convert to the good stuff, and it's a small portion of the market. In the end I'm happy with whatever reason brought Stone to Ontario. It's been something I've been looking forward to for a long time.

Stone not being a "cutting edge" brewery: Well, I'm not sure how to respond to that one. If cutting edge means "new", then yes, they're not. They're a 20 year old company in a business addicted to new. They seem to still be putting out creative recipes with their one offs and collaborations and what not. I always go back to consistent quality though and Stone delivers that in droves. They still make world class beer, just like they've always done. They're not a "grail" company by any means anymore though that's for sure. I'm OK with that though. Just means more Stone for me. What do you think they could do to be "more creative"?

I love Sierra Nevada too, but I would put Stone above them. Can't go wrong for the most part with either.

To your last point about better distribution, I, so far, haven't been buying less Stone, I just end up spending more money overall. :D
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Postby TheSevenDuffs » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:00 am

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote: What do you think they could do to be "more creative"?

I've always been dumbfounded by Stone's apparent apprehension to jumping in to the barrel aged beer scene. Only recently have they bottles and and sold such beers to retail and, even that was fairly limited to west coast distribution. Interestingly enough, the same can be said about SN, until the very recent BA Bigfoot and BA Narwhal releases that went nationwide. Barrel aging opens up such a world of creative possibilities.

They've also never done anything sour or even remotely along those lines. That's probably just not their things so I can't be overly critical of that. There are some very creative and highly regarded breweries (Founders) that are in the same boat.

I guess Stone has always been more of a hoppy pale ale brewery and it's hard to complain about their offerings on that category. So perhaps I have just always wished that Stone would strive to become more diverse and more interesting but I should just be happy with what they are, I guess.
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Postby MatttthewGeorge » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:31 pm

atomeyes wrote:those 2 breweries aren't on my radar.

but i still think there's a correlation between the US invasion and the changes coming to TBS.
i think the US companies have been told about the changes coming.

many shitty ontario microbreweries will fold after this US invasion. only so many taps and so much linear footage at the 'BO


Considering I was just told Stone is $380 for a 58L, Ontario micros have little to worry about.
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Postby matt7215 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:20 pm

MatttthewGeorge wrote:
atomeyes wrote:those 2 breweries aren't on my radar.

but i still think there's a correlation between the US invasion and the changes coming to TBS.
i think the US companies have been told about the changes coming.

many shitty ontario microbreweries will fold after this US invasion. only so many taps and so much linear footage at the 'BO


Considering I was just told Stone is $380 for a 58L, Ontario micros have little to worry about.


cant wait to drink those $12/12oz pours!
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Postby Kish84 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:03 pm

MatttthewGeorge wrote:
atomeyes wrote:those 2 breweries aren't on my radar.

but i still think there's a correlation between the US invasion and the changes coming to TBS.
i think the US companies have been told about the changes coming.

many shitty ontario microbreweries will fold after this US invasion. only so many taps and so much linear footage at the 'BO


Considering I was just told Stone is $380 for a 58L, Ontario micros have little to worry about.

From what I've heard, that's still a lot cheaper per L than Innocente...
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Postby Cass » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:52 pm

Even though $380 is a large number, it's 66% of the price of what Ommegang is. But it is more expensive that OOP Canadian beers such as Central City & Big Rock.

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Postby Craig » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:51 pm

I was wondering how that compared. A keg of Keiths is 320, a keg of Canadian 310. 380 doesn't seem so bad, I guess.
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Postby MatttthewGeorge » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:34 pm

Craig wrote:I was wondering how that compared. A keg of Keiths is 320, a keg of Canadian 310. 380 doesn't seem so bad, I guess.


Those are tax and deposit in. Not too sure if the $380 I was told are.

Ommegang. Rogue. Brew Dog. All 3 haven't put a dent the draught market. No reason to think Stone will, esp. considering the price.
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Postby lister » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:10 pm

MatttthewGeorge wrote:Ommegang. Rogue. Brew Dog. All 3 haven't put a dent the draught market. No reason to think Stone will, esp. considering the price.


Did anyone seriously think any of those would appear outside the usual suspects and the Bier Markts?

Or are you saying they should have had a bigger presence in the usual suspects (and the Bier Markts)? I don't think the likes of Bar Hop or Volo would devote more than one or two taps at best of each other than for a special tap takeover event.
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Postby spinrsx » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:21 am

you mean I won't be able to get Stone IPA on tap at Swiss Chalet?!

lister wrote:Did anyone seriously think any of those would appear outside the usual suspects and the Bier Markts?

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Postby lister » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:47 am

spinrsx wrote:you mean I won't be able to get Stone IPA on tap at Swiss Chalet?!

lister wrote:Did anyone seriously think any of those would appear outside the usual suspects and the Bier Markts?



Shockingly no. :P

I'm a fan of having IPAs or chardonnays with my chicken and turkey.

Swiss Chalet is missing out on good food pairing.

Not that I go to Swiss Chalet much at all.
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Postby El Pinguino » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:51 am

TheSevenDuffs wrote:
The truth of the matter is that big beer geeks in the US don't drink Stone, aside from Enjoy By. I'm sure you'd find many BTers that have regular access to US beer would tell you the same..


I don't agree with this statement. The "Enjoy By" versions I've had were rougher and less enjoyable than Ruination. I also prefer the Bastard beers over their regular IPA lineup. Lukcy Bastard and Ruination are always happy purchases for me.

Curious what the new recipe for Stone IPA will be like though...right now it is average.

Some people clamour for the "Enjoy By" beers because they are tickers more than beer geeks...they just want to say they've tried every Enjoy By release.
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Postby MatttthewGeorge » Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:59 am

lister wrote:
MatttthewGeorge wrote:Ommegang. Rogue. Brew Dog. All 3 haven't put a dent the draught market. No reason to think Stone will, esp. considering the price.


Did anyone seriously think any of those would appear outside the usual suspects and the Bier Markts?

Or are you saying they should have had a bigger presence in the usual suspects (and the Bier Markts)? I don't think the likes of Bar Hop or Volo would devote more than one or two taps at best of each other than for a special tap takeover event.


I was responding to the comment made about foreign breweries pushing out the Ontario ones. Hasn't happened at bars (nor retail), so I don't see why Stone, Atwater & Red Hook will be any different.
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Postby TheSevenDuffs » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:56 am

El Pinguino wrote:
TheSevenDuffs wrote:
The truth of the matter is that big beer geeks in the US don't drink Stone, aside from Enjoy By. I'm sure you'd find many BTers that have regular access to US beer would tell you the same..


I don't agree with this statement. The "Enjoy By" versions I've had were rougher and less enjoyable than Ruination. I also prefer the Bastard beers over their regular IPA lineup. Lukcy Bastard and Ruination are always happy purchases for me.

Curious what the new recipe for Stone IPA will be like though...right now it is average.

Some people clamour for the "Enjoy By" beers because they are tickers more than beer geeks...they just want to say they've tried every Enjoy By release.
You don't have to "agree" with the statement, it is true. I know a lot of big beer geeks who live across the US and none of them drink Stone, except for the odd Enjoy By, or maybe Go To IPA from time to time. The big Beer Geeks are too busy hunting down Hill Farmstead, Lawson's, Toggling Goliath, Cigar City and all of the great local stuff that is in their backyard for Stone to even register with them.

That being said, the one part of my statement that was perhaps a little bit exaggerated is that Enjoy By is the only beer that any beer geek hunts down. That, of course is an exaggeration and was meant more to typify the average beer geek as opposed to define all beer geeks.
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Postby A » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:13 pm

Ale's What Cures Ya wrote:
instantkamera wrote:Troll's obvious, so forgive me if I ignore everything else you post from now until the end of time.


Yep. I've been posting on and off for nine years just so I can troll. You got me figured out.

Be my guest and ignore my posts. It won't hurt me any.

However, if you'd be so polite as to indulge me, I'd like to hear a single Ontario brewery you think is better than Stone.


I personally think what you can get at the brewpubs for Bellwoods, Indie, or Amsterdam is better than Stone. I will hedge that statement in two ways: I am comparing fresh local to long distance stone, and I am personally not a huge fan of stone because I find them to be too harsh.

The main problem with ontario micros at this point is distribution, not quality.

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