The conundrum of opening a brewpub in Toronto

[atomeyes]

so...
hear me out.

i've asked this before and wondered if toronto could possibly host brewpubs on the level that, for example, Portland does. i've looked into it and found out that we're at a strange crossroads.

Since 2013 (someone correct me if my info's incorrect, please and thanks), the city of Toronto eliminated zoning that allowed brewing on premises. Now, in order to operate a brewery, you need to be zoned for industrial use. In the city's eyes, a brewery that's the size of Molson's facility near the airport is the same as a brewery that makes 1 litre of beer a week. the second you brew, you, in theory, need industrial zoning.

now, which brewpubs, if any, have that zoning? the answer is: next to none. There's only one brewpub that i'm aware of (its opening is pending) that is actually zoned for industrial use and is doing things by the books. Other brewpubs, including one that's opened/opening in the west end, and one that opened recently in the east end, apparently do not have the zoning to brew.

why is this an issue? because if the city wanted to, they could crack down on breweries that are operating in areas not zoned for brewing. cracking down can mean fines or worse. or the city can change their zoning laws to allow breweries that brew under X barrels/year to operate in regular commercial areas, just like restaurants or juice bars or bakeries operate.

if a brewery wants to re-apply for a zoning variance, you're talking about time and money. you have to jump through Committee of Adjustment hoops. so doing the right thing costs $$$ and may not get you the proper zoning, which means that a business owner is likely on the hook for a lease. or a business owner can open a bar/restaurant, get their permits closed, and then put their brewery in and either re-apply after the fact or hope that no one complains and plead ignorance. or the fear of any of the above plus our high rents and lack of sq footage may result in many good neighbourhood brewpubs not opening.

so what should future brewpub owners do? do things by the book? do things on the sly? or not open anything at all?

[Tapsucker]

A reasonable discussion with the politicos could go as follows.

Beer is food. Restaurants, make/prepare food, brewpubs make beer. There is no real reason for one or the other to have a negative impact on neighbours.

Breweries are more akin to food processing plants; industrial. For marketing reasons, they may have onsite promotional facilities, but they are not restaurants or brewpubs. Also their location has a greater impact on quality of life in the community. I.e. deliveries coming and going, odours, possible noise, etc.

This is something than can be sorted out based on pretty good precedents.

Ultimately, it's probably all about scale.

[atomeyes]

Ultimately, it's probably all about scale.

as of now? not according to the city.

which is a shame because it may kill bricks and mortar micros/brewpubs in this city.

[admviolin]

I don't know anything about what is and is not allowed.
I can see how a few smaller operations might have snuck under the radar (if that is the case) like House Ales, Habits, Get Well. I don't know how a place like 3 brewers could set up shop so easily though (and 5+ years ago at that). It makes me think the law doesn't exist.

[Belgian]

Since 2013 (someone correct me if my info's incorrect, please and thanks), the city of Toronto eliminated zoning that allowed brewing on premises.

Whatever happened to all the fun in the world? Were brew pubs such a threat to anybody?

IF it's true. Might as well prohibit coffee houses that roast their beans, and bakeries or anybody with ovens. All our food and drink should be factory-made, and foreign-owned just like The Beer Store.

[northyorksammy]

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/small-b ... t-brewery/

[northyorksammy]

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/small-b ... t-brewery/

[atomeyes]

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/small-b ... t-brewery/

the article's pretty void of information for those who are actually looking to start up and have done their research.
for Toronto, i'd use the $750 000 figure, depending on the size and scope of your operation.
you can probably do a brewpub on the cheap for $500 000, or you can have a 10+ barrel system and a restaurant and seat 100 people for well over $1 million, depending on how hard core you go with decor, bottling/canning, patio, etc.

In Toronto, though, capital's not the biggest issue. you can find enough dummies out there that will throw money around. i'm hearing stories of Niagara grads being chased by investors. the big issue for toronto would be space and zoning.

[zane9]

...IF it's true. Might as well prohibit coffee houses that roast their beans, and bakeries or anybody with ovens.

As a home roaster, I've looked into how I can scale up roasted bean production. Coffee roasteries also need to be situated in commercial/industrial zones or they're not permitted to roast.

[atomeyes]

...IF it's true. Might as well prohibit coffee houses that roast their beans, and bakeries or anybody with ovens.

As a home roaster, I've looked into how I can scale up roasted bean production. Coffee roasteries also need to be situated in commercial/industrial zones or they're not permitted to roast.

commercial and industrial zoning are 2 different beasts.
Commercial zoning is basically the general zoning you find everywhere in toronto.
industrial zoning is incredibly hard to come by.
Left Field, for example, is industrial. I assume that Amsterdam also is zoned accordingly.
Sweetgrass, when they open, will need to apply for industrial zoning

[atomeyes]

Don Peat's suddenly tweeting that Gord Perks and Mike Layton want a craft beer and cullinary "trail". hah.
Gord Perks stopped new bars/restos from opening in Parkdale so people could "walk out and buy lightbulbs". illogical.
i've tweeted to both Layton and Perks about the obstacles in the current system. Perks says "apply for re-zoning" as if it takes weeks, costs nothing and is seamless.
meanwhile, new breweries are opening up and not being properly zoned. will the city decide to start cracking down?
and old breweries don't have the zoning requirements, yet that's grandfathered. makes no sense.

[FEUO]

A reasonable discussion with the politicos could go as follows.

Beer is food.

/discussion

Never forget we are in the land of temperance.
Beer contains alcohol not food and must be controlled.
Sorry, channeling my inner out-to-lunch politician.

[jcc]

Don Peat's suddenly tweeting that Gord Perks and Mike Layton want a craft beer and cullinary "trail". hah.
Gord Perks stopped new bars/restos from opening in Parkdale so people could "walk out and buy lightbulbs". illogical.
i've tweeted to both Layton and Perks about the obstacles in the current system. Perks says "apply for re-zoning" as if it takes weeks, costs nothing and is seamless.
meanwhile, new breweries are opening up and not being properly zoned. will the city decide to start cracking down?
and old breweries don't have the zoning requirements, yet that's grandfathered. makes no sense.

Gord Perks is an idiot who should never have been reelected and has likely never had a real job. Considering he shut down all new liquor licenses in the city for 6 months it is not surprising he would have made a stupid comment like that.

[atomeyes]

at least Mike Layton replied and it made sense. he argued that a bakery-turned-brewery should have the same zoning.

these pinheads are riding on the coatwaves of craft beer but think the machinations of city hall don't need to be reworked whatsoever

[atomeyes]

and now Don Peat's published an article.
please, i encourage everyone to tweet to Don to give feedback and point out to city councillors that they need to fix what's broken in this city

http://m.torontosun.com/2015/04/10/toro ... -the-world