Sours, Brett, Wild, and Saisons

[snorristurluson]

Hi,

Just wondering if any one has any recommendations on any sours, or farmhouse beer being produced in Ontario (or perhaps Quebec) ?
I don't believe there is anyone specializing in Belgian styles, is there (like Allagash or New Belgium do in the USA)?
I think Bellwoods stands out at the forefront of these styles, but was curious on others thoughts?

Have a great long weekend.

[Craig]

There isn't that much being produced in those styles in Ontario, at least not regularly. I'd agree with you that Bellwoods is the best around at the moment.

Amsterdam is starting to do stuff like this more frequently. I really like the Rye Peppercorn saison they did a year or two ago and they do a few sours like De Wallen from time to time that are pretty nice.

Lots of people have a basic saison out now. Black Oak, Left Field and Nickelbrook, to name a few.

[Belgian]

The predominant trend is to avoid true character in those beers - if you order an Ontario-made Saison, Leipziger Gose, or Flanders Ale IMLE it is likely to play it very safe rather than display true earthiness and funk, salty sweaty sourness, solid dryness or any real flavor profiles those beer style might have the potential to express. Sometimes you might as well order a wheat beer instead of a Berliner Weisse or a Saison.

There are exceptions to this, for example I think Nickel Brook makes at least one good Saison and one reasonable Berliner Weisse. It's possible even Beaus made one Saison that was not a sugar-sweet wheat ale, although their Gose tasted to me like a salty Belgian Wit (I swear with citrus and herbs.) So our brewers do have positive potential, whatever (lack of) commercial appeal may prevent them from going for it. Half measures don't appeal to the beer geek so much either, not when you can get eg. Saison Dupont anywhere or the occasional sour like Goudenband.

Part of the trouble here may be the beer styles can seem to be produced as an afterthought or a 'yeah we do this too' type of thing, which is not the case of the more dedicated or old-school European brewer of these beers. One wonders if the results are sometimes a low-risk variation on an existing recipe they do, to sort of wave a proverbial tea bag over something and call it tea. That's just the impression I get when the beer makes little iteration of the style, you get what you get and if other people like it that's just fine.

[AugustusRex]

The predominant trend is to avoid true character in those beers - if you order an Ontario-made Saison, Leipziger Gose, or Flanders Ale IMLE it is likely to play it very safe rather than display true earthiness and funk, salty sweaty sourness, solid dryness or any real flavor profiles those beer style might have the potential to express. Sometimes you might as well order a wheat beer instead of a Berliner Weisse or a Saison.

There are exceptions to this, for example I think Nickel Brook makes at least one good Saison and one reasonable Berliner Weisse. It's possible even Beaus made one Saison that was not a sugar-sweet wheat ale, although their Gose tasted to me like a salty Belgian Wit (I swear with citrus and herbs.) So our brewers do have positive potential, whatever (lack of) commercial appeal may prevent them from going for it. Half measures don't appeal to the beer geek so much either, not when you can get eg. Saison Dupont anywhere or the occasional sour like Goudenband.

Part of the trouble here may be the beer styles can seem to be produced as an afterthought or a 'yeah we do this too' type of thing, which is not the case of the more dedicated or old-school European brewer of these beers. One wonders if the results are sometimes a low-risk variation on an existing recipe they do, to sort of wave a proverbial tea bag over something and call it tea. That's just the impression I get when the beer makes little iteration of the style, you get what you get and if other people like it that's just fine.

My thoughts exactly.

[BakaGaijin]

Herisson by TDD is a fantastic sour. I enjoyed it much more than Dulcis. Also, I really enjoy Bellwood's Warp and Weft.

[snorristurluson]

Thanks for the replies.

Do you think the market in Ontario just isn't there yet?

I lived in NY for awhile, and I know the market is just beginning to shift there over the last couple years with 3 or 4 Belgian centric breweries opening.

(Side note: besides Cuvée des Jacobins, any other solid sours in the LCBO lately?)

[Belgian]

'...(The) market just isn't there yet?' Less than 8 or 10 years ago, the craft brewers here were whinging there was at that time not even a market for IPA's - or basically much at all besides workaday lagers and cream ales. They were actually SO wrong, the whole time. Now they're at least chasing the ball whenever it looks like a safe play with more beer styles.

So the vision may not be there yet, but the Ontario market has proven itself ready for sophisticated styles of craft beer, almost to the pitch of embarrassment. People here just like beer with flair and flavor. Everything Bellwoods makes sells like wildfire, and if they are not the unofficial pilot project for at least some beer styles that might take off then I can't imagine who is. I once spoke with a brewing talent from Nickel Brook supping a pint at Bellwoods, and I believe our breweries do have inspired brewers that know what's going on and where the potential market may lay for more beer styles. Give them a bit of free rein, I say!

Embracing the imagination of good brewers seems to be a factor that has brought Amsterdam out of the old era, with pilot brewings that morphed into some of their very respectable regular and seasonal offerings. Great Lakes has also taken hoppy ales to a passionate level of dedication, a very successful all-in approach.

[Craig]

The trick with the market in Ontario is before you can test what it will bear in regards to certain styles, you can to convince the LCBO that the market exists for those styles. It's not like Bellwoods could start pumping out Warp and Weft in the volumes of say Mad Tom and sell it all out of their one little storefront.

[BakaGaijin]

Thanks for the replies.

(Side note: besides Cuvée des Jacobins, any other solid sours in the LCBO lately?)

There are a few bottles of Petrus Aged Pale still out there. It has a nice bit of tartness to it.

In the last year or so Boon Framboise, Liefmans Goudenband, and St. Louis Fond Tradition were respectable offerings.

[Ceecee]

As for Quebec, Dunham is doing some interesting things. Their saisons are very good, with Propolis and Saison du Pinacle being my favourites. If you hit the QC stores at the right time (e.g. tomorrow) you can pick up some of their blends and wine barrel aged stuff.
TDD does some nice sours/wild ales if you can get your hands on them. Le Coq, Dulcis Succubus, the L'Ours series are all great.
Not sure if they're producing it any more but last year I grabbed a few Tripe a Trois Brett from A la Fut.
Also, the DDC Solstice D'Ete raspberry Berliner weisse should be out in the next couple of months.

[snorristurluson]

I'm planning a trip to VT and will stop by Dunham on my return. Are there any Quebec retailers which stocks one-off Quebec releases that you recommend (in Montreal, or near Ottawa)?

Belgian - thanks for the feedback. I noticed you've posted about Stone City a few times, they have a Brett/Farmhouse right now which is decent.

[BakaGaijin]

I'm planning a trip to VT and will stop by Dunham on my return. Are there any Quebec retailers which stocks one-off Quebec releases that you recommend (in Montreal, or near Ottawa)?

Belgian - thanks for the feedback. I noticed you've posted about Stone City a few times, they have a Brett/Farmhouse right now which is decent.

My suggestion is don't even bother with trying to find rare Quebec one-off releases at retailers. It is a waste of time. What you should do is post in the Quebec beer trading forum and the fine people there will take care of you.

Here is the forum:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1474821586128791/

Dunham just had a release last weekend. I'm lazy.........but you can easily search and find a list of all the crazy shit they were selling. It was crazy. All the traders will have these Dunham bottles and you should be able to easily trade for them. You should be able to do Motley Cru, Barn Owl, and other Bellwoods releases $4$. Also, if you're picking up stuff from HF, Lawson's, Alchemist, etc, you will be able to easily trade this for Quebec brews.

One retailer that I thought was particularly good in Montreal was Veux-tu une biere? It's a little out of the way........but they have mostly everything. One of the guys working here, Dominique, is on the Quebec beer trading forum and is a solid guy.

http://veuxtuunebiere.com/

[northyorksammy]

west ave cider going to funk brett releases

[Ceecee]

I'm planning a trip to VT and will stop by Dunham on my return. Are there any Quebec retailers which stocks one-off Quebec releases that you recommend (in Montreal, or near Ottawa)?

Broue Ha Ha and Marche des Brasseurs in Gatineau have some stuff but I doubt it will last the week, especially the sours and saisons. I'm going to BHH today so if I see anything of interest, I can grab it for you (if you're still coming through Ottawa). If you're coming from VT I'm sure you'll have no shortage of things to trade.

[FEUO]

And some Ontario brewers are still very small and keep those types of offerings limited to draft only.
One great example is Black Swan's berlinerweisse "Wild Child". One of Ontario's best "sour" beers, period.

As for those doing belgian styled brews that may have stuff in the LCBO (as some folks rely solely on this outfit) are Oast House's Saison and Biere De Garde.
And there are a bunch more (Indie Ale House for starters) making Dubbels.