Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

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JeffPorter
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Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby JeffPorter » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:47 pm

Why are so many Strong Ontario beers tapped out at 11.9%?

Is there something about the tax structure? A secret code.

Double Tempest
All the GLB releases
Kentucky Bastard

What’s the deal?
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Napalm Frog
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby Napalm Frog » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:04 pm

Legally, it's not beer if it's over 11.9%, one would need a distillery license

beer or malt liquor means all fermented liquor that is brewed in whole or in part from malt, grain or any saccharine matter without any process of distillation and that has an alcoholic strength not in excess of 11.9% absolute ethyl alcohol by volume, but does not include wine as defined in section 2 of the Excise Act, 2001; (bière ou liqueur de malt)


Definition from: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... age-3.html
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Belgian
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby Belgian » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:39 pm

Ontarded.
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BeerIsGood
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby BeerIsGood » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:17 pm

Yet, beer above this threshold is permitted for sale in the province, as Samichlaus, which clocks in at 14%, was part of the winter release and has been here in the past as well.

As an aside, I'd like another crack at Sami, as the first time I tried it many, many years ago proved not to be enjoyable for me. A lot of experience has been gained and a reassessment would be nice. I see it's out of stock at the LCBO.

I stand corrected, it's only out of stock online.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby JeffPorter » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:34 pm

But what about Where the buffalo Roam at 13%? So a beer can’t be 12 % but it can be 13?
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ErkLR
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby ErkLR » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:47 pm

Belgian wrote:Ontarded.


That's a federal law Napalm Frog quoted, see the website.

For imports, my guess is: other countries probably define beer differently, and the LCBO can certainly import liquors (ie "beer" that is above 11.9%) and put them in whatever section they like.

Jeff, Beer Advocate, Ratebeer and Untappd all list Buffalo Roam as 11.2
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby beerstodiscover » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:59 pm

Domestic brewers can exceed 11.9%. Last year's Kentucky Bastard was 14.5% and countless other examples. There is some regulatory hoop to jump through and possibly tax implications. It's not stopping NB, Cameron's and others . . .
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby ErkLR » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:07 pm

beerstodiscover wrote:Last year's Kentucky Bastard was 14.5% and countless other examples. There is some regulatory hoop to jump through and possibly tax implications.

That's a good point. Extra tax could be why they were losing money on it if I recall correctly from another thread.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby beerstodiscover » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:10 pm

Bartowel has the answers.

From what I gather a brewer would need a distillers licence. I'm sure Flying Monkey's was selling Invictus at the brewery and LCBO @17.5% abv.
Last edited by beerstodiscover on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby MatttthewGeorge » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:24 pm

I believe NB has the proper licence due to the brew your own wine store on premise.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby beerstodiscover » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:26 pm

I think breweries were flouting the rules until a few years back when there was a crackdown and 11.9 appeared everywhere. I'd rather let a brewer decide how strong a brew should be, especially if I'm paying a premium for a special release. I would guess some brews are 11.9 in name only.

You can search for active distillers licences in Ontario. I can only spot Brick, Mill St. and Muskoka. Yet there's a 13% barley wine from Cameron's on LCBO shleves. Hmmm...
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby Craig » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm

beerstodiscover wrote:I think breweries were flouting the rules until a few years back when there was a crackdown and 11.9 appeared everywhere. I'd rather let a brewer decide how strong a brew should be, especially if I'm paying a premium for a special release. I would guess some brews are 11.9 in name only.

You can search for active distillers licences in Ontario. I can only spot Brick, Mill St. and Muskoka. Yet there's a 13% barley wine from Cameron's on LCBO shleves. Hmmm...


This is my understanding. There was a crackdown and brewers started fudging the numbers to make everything under 12. I believe that since then they've stopped enforcing it again, so the abvs have gone back up.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby El Pinguino » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:59 am

I remember Amsterdam Double tempest from last year came in quite a bit higher than the 11.9% limit and they had to re-adjust it somehow to get to 11.9% as Amsterdam didn't have the right license.

No idea what that would involve...I mean they don't just "water it down" do they?
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby seangm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:30 am

El Pinguino wrote:I remember Amsterdam Double tempest from last year came in quite a bit higher than the 11.9% limit and they had to re-adjust it somehow to get to 11.9% as Amsterdam didn't have the right license.

No idea what that would involve...I mean they don't just "water it down" do they?


Probably not straight up water, but possibly cutting it with a complementary lower ABV beer; i.e. blending in a 5% ABV stout until they hit the desired strength.
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Re: Okay...someone explain 11.9 abv to me...

Postby atomeyes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:41 am

ErkLR wrote:
beerstodiscover wrote:Last year's Kentucky Bastard was 14.5% and countless other examples. There is some regulatory hoop to jump through and possibly tax implications.

That's a good point. Extra tax could be why they were losing money on it if I recall correctly from another thread.


from what i understand....
12% is the maximum, but you have 1% abv "error wiggle room". so you can measure at 12.9%.
it's just not the distiller's license. i believe it has to do with the excise that you pay above 12%.
high abv beer aren't "efficient" beer i.e. you leave a lot of sugars in the grain. that, plus the aging time plus the higher taxes means it's probably not affordable to make higher than 12% beer (on purpose).

XX Tempest, i believe, got dinged 2 years ago for being too high. may have been the AGCO.

i don't understand what happened with Nickelbrook's high abv beer and how they got away with it.

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