Liquor sales in Ontario up for review

[midlife crisis]

The usual suspects speak up (today's Star):

That article is so depressing. In particular, did I really see the following from the executive director of MADD Canada??

"It's [alcohol] not a commodity that should be on the open, free market."

Keep that in mind next time MADD solicits for a donation.

[GregClow]

The usual suspects speak up (today's Star):

That article is so depressing. In particular, did I really see the following from the executive director of MADD Canada??

"It's [alcohol] not a commodity that should be on the open, free market."

Keep that in mind next time MADD solicits for a donation.

I had some respect for MADD when their primary goal was to fight against drunk driving.

But now that they've turned into a neo-prohibitionist lobby group, they can suck it.

[JerCraigs]

My impression (which may or may not be accurate) is that most people under the age of about 30 have gotten the message and for the most part take transit or arrange a DD when drinking.

<30 year olds are probably more likely to get pulled over stoned than drunk.

Anyways, thats off topic.


Pros: I'd love to be able to buy singles, or sixes of stuff from Esprit and Rubaiyat which would in theory be more possible with freeer laws.... Something along the lines of Metro Joanette in Montreal. Who knows.

Cons: The LCBO / Beer Store does provide a lot of infrastructure that helps micros.

[pootz]

Apparently, the McGuinty Gov't has just announced that they are setting up a commission to review how liquor is sold in Ontario. From what I understand, everything is on the table except the wholesale sale of the LCBO. Time to get out our lobbying caps.

Joe.

The equation: McGuinty + free enterptise= another bureaucratic morass and tax waste.

I can't see the Mcguinty clique tackling anything more complex than padding the expense account.

If this is true about retail review....be scared...be very scared and be prepared to make your views made clear to your MPP.

[pootz]

The government has given the panel five clear principles to guide the
review:

- Safeguarding socially responsible consumption, storage, distribution
and sale of beverage alcohol
- Convenience, variety and competitive prices for consumers
- Maximizing value to taxpayers
- Ensuring responsible reuse and recycling practices
- Promoting Ontario's products

You have to accostomed to reading between the lines in Government motherhood statements on what direction they intend to act. The feel good mission statements tell us more by what is NOT included in them.

Notable abscent in this fuzzy policy statement is:

No mention of framing the retail and distribution of the beverage industry in an atmospere of free competition...read in protectionism for large government patrons here.

No mention of price cuts to the public by removing governt intervention costs and tax....if were were paying the true cost of beer plus a reasonable profit as competition permits a can of Molcoorbat would be about 45 cents.

No mention that private retailers won't be hamstrung with a regualtory regime that makes their small enterprise more risky than the big players.

Lastly , no mention of recinding the price fixing that the current liquor regime engages in.

I will be making inputs and keeping a close ear to this process as I have a hope it will open opportunity for a private business enterprise....but I suspect all that will be acomplished is another shallow token effort....the big brewers and distillers just have too much to lose with the current protected captive market.....can't see McGuinty risking the wrath of the big guys or the loss of revenue. No socialist government with a retail monopoly will ever willingly let the revenue go. They may rearrange the market and regualtory regime so they get the same revenue from different or more sources ...but they won;t do what needs to be done in the Ontraio market which is: get out of the retail business....stop competing with private enterprise, stop price fixing and over taxing and hand the saveing down to the consumer with a free market where the prices are determined by demand and competition.

I saw Sixes of Molsons at a supermarket in Illinois as an "import" for $3.95...when we see similar prices at similar retail outlets I'll say the government is serious.

[joey_capps]

There is no way that this process will result in cheaper prices. Say what you want about the LCBO, it does offer very reasonable prices. True you can get a 40 oz can of Malt Liquor cheaper in some States, but who would want to. If the market opens up, we can hope for two things:

1) Convenience

You would be able to buy your 40 of Malt Liquor at 7-11 at 3:00 am.

2) Variety

Hopefully, a few specialty beer stores will open in the larger markets, and selection will increase. . I would be willing to pay more per bottle to purchase one or two beers from a retail outlet than having to buy an entire case from a distributor. In fact, I already do this but have to travel to Buffalo for the pleasure.

Joe.

[esprit]

Please don't anyone get on a rant about pricing in Ontario...sure, maybe you can buy cheap Canadian brews in Quebec for less but, for the most part, prices of imported wines and specialty beers in Ontario would be the envy of anyone living in a free enterprise state in the U.S.. Anyone who thinks that any sort of privatization will bring prices down is not a beer drinker but rather someone who's smoking some real good shit and should be sharing it with the rest of us!

[dhurtubise]

At least where the belgians are concerned, we hardly pay any more than we would down there. The Grand-Cru at 2.20 is about the same price I payed in belgium 2 summers ago. In fact, most of the single bottles we get are priced similarly to Belgian prices.

For most microbreweries, you will pay between 1.25 - 1.75 EU for a single standard sized bottle (330ml). In Belgium, I payed about 2.75EU at the brewery for the cantillon we got for 4$ plus change this summer. The small Trappist breweries are a little more - up to 3.50 EU for Westy 12 for example. I bought Rochefort 10 a few times during my travels that summer and the only place where I got it for less than Peter's price was at the brewery. In my opinion, there is very little room for a profit margin at these prices and thank God these guys are continuing to import these puppies for us.

If there is one portion of the market that is severely overpriced, it is the swill, but that doesn't affect me. I am contiunuously baffled to see the German breweries constitantly produce higher quality lagers (more expensive ingredients), ship them overseas to Canada and still beat the macros for pricing on a per volume basis.

We can argue about the variety which is not as good as it could be, but the pricing for the specialty beers is extremely fair.

[Belgian]

It will be a different game/

Hope they don't screw up availability of product.

[pootz]

Please don't anyone get on a rant about pricing in Ontario...sure, maybe you can buy cheap Canadian brews in Quebec for less but, for the most part, prices of imported wines and specialty beers in Ontario would be the envy of anyone living in a free enterprise state in the U.S.. Anyone who thinks that any sort of privatization will bring prices down is not a beer drinker but rather someone who's smoking some real good shit and should be sharing it with the rest of us!

Well "the herb" is pricey no matter what market you buy in (although I hear the feds may want to get into distribution) but in Alberta and other more open markets beer is moderately cheaper than here and liquor is as well...then again that market was "deregualted" not privatised. Alberta sold off all it's retail assets and that produced a moderate decrease in the price they charged private retaliers for distribution.

I find the prices of imports in the Buffalo specialty stores reasonable...until you pay the duty

[Manul]

The prices in Alberta are no lower than here. Maybe that's true for some of the local micros. The imports are definitely higher priced. I've traveled most of North America and Canada and as a beer drinker I have to say I am pleased how much I can get for my dollar in Ontario LCBO.

[DukeofYork = Richard]

The worst outcome would be the Alberta-style system. The product range stays the same, but private stores carry it. Selection worsens, prices go up.

[esprit]

Although the average Alberta liquor store today has a piss-poor selection of all products, the fact is that in Alberta there are currently over 10,000 different SKU's available. The LCBO General List has something like 3,000+ with vintages bringing in perhaps another 3,000 a year. In point of fact, I believe the Consignment program brings in another 3-4,000 SKU's but most of this is destined for restaurants as few consumers want to invest in full cases of wine. What happened in Alberta is that selection was dumbed down in your average store because the private operator could not afford to carry slow moving, esoteric products. What did develop are specialty stores for wines and spirits and, to some degree, beer. We sell a number of our products in Alberta including Trappists and I can tell you they are all a lot more expensive than in Ontario if for no other reason that the transportation. Again, someone mentioned Buffalo and good prices...please give me some that herb!!!! Buffalo prices for European imports are more often than not, higher than ours. I don't know where this whole LCBO review will go but there's no question the Liberals already know where they're going and have appointed a panel to give the process a feel of consultation. Problem is, they need big bucks and tinkering with the system won't produce big bucks. It would take something radical like an Income Trust to truly generate the kind of cash they need. Frankly, I don't know enough about income trusts to figure out how that might impact us all, both consumers and people on the business end of this. What I'm hoping they'll throw into the mix as a sort of treat for consumers is some level of privatization which would allow a retail alternative to the monopoly as is the case in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Manitoba and B.C.. That way, instead of me sitting home today waiting for a never ending stream of customers coming to pick up St. Bernardus products, my beers could be in a beer superstore while I spend the day casually spending the millions I would be making.

[pootz]

What happened in Alberta is that selection was dumbed down in your average store because the private operator could not afford to carry slow moving, esoteric products. What did develop are specialty stores for wines and spirits and, to some degree, beer

Correct esprit....the Aberta privatization detractors should look at the specialty liquor stores on 9th ave...(8 of them) and for beer the selection at beer specialty stores like Edmonton trail liquor or willow park dwarfs what I have seen at the LCBO...there are more American brands and I kanow there is prety much a duplicate of what Esprit reps on the shelves...micros from 4 provinces....and the fact their is actual competition and you can shop for something and find the best price if that is your bag.

The privatization path is slow in Canada/Alberta because by and large we ( as entrepreneurs) either don't respond quickly to risk or get sheepish because of an unsophisticated or virgin market. Things in Alberta are moving along... as esprit says if it seems crawling it's because the merchants are responding to the slow evolution of the specialty liquor market....when taste evolves the market will thrive......I believe if Ontario had Alberta's semi-hands off system specialty stores would thrive and the variety would blossom overnight...much faster than in Alberta....and competition and small bureaucracy would keep prices reasonable. This is a governement template Alberta has instituted in many private sector diversity programs...it has created a good and thriving low tax business friendly environment that has Alberta booming....other provinces have to compete to attract the private sector investment....otherwise a guy like McGuinty would never move on accomodating the private sector in something like the liqupr monopoly....and risk POing the unions.

[pootz]

The prices in Alberta are no lower than here. Maybe that's true for some of the local micros. The imports are definitely higher priced. I've traveled most of North America and Canada and as a beer drinker I have to say I am pleased how much I can get for my dollar in Ontario LCBO.

You assume all retailer have the same price....did you shop around? there is genuine competition in Alberta ....of course it's limited by the margins but the margins get better as the voume the government makes improves.

I remeber seeing sales on beer that is coming into a month of expirey for 6 bucks a six....I saw Aventinus at the E-tral stor for $2.60.

Here I see the LCBO clip 10 or 25 cents off a bottle they have an issue moving.....I see the latest is Anchor Liberty....In the lat place I bought it in Alberta ( Kensington wines) it sells below the sale price at the LCBO and there is no provincial sales tax on it. Rogue dead Guy was aloso on sale for 11 bucks a six.