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LCBO report to be released today...

Discuss beer or anything else that comes to mind in here.

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inertiaboy
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Post by inertiaboy »

4) "Mr. Lacey said the panel spent more than $500,000 on the review. The fact that its finding will essentially be shelved prompted howls of protect from opposition members that the government has wasted taxpayers' money."

So because they spent money on it they must follow the recommendations for fear of ridicule? Are you sure this is how government should make their decisions? Who is this Mr. Lacey and how fast can he be fired?
I think perhaps what he was suggesting is that the whole exercise itself was a waste of money. When starting the review board, the government must have known that the main recommendation of the report would be privatization and that the government's response would be to reject that recommendation. I think that leaves us with two possibilities: either 1) the government knowingly wasted money knowing they would reject the report, or 2) the government actually believes that the current system is the best option and believed the report would confirm that.

I think that either case raises questions about the government's ability to protect the "public interest".

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Cass
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Post by Cass »

inertiaboy wrote:
4) "Mr. Lacey said the panel spent more than $500,000 on the review. The fact that its finding will essentially be shelved prompted howls of protect from opposition members that the government has wasted taxpayers' money."

So because they spent money on it they must follow the recommendations for fear of ridicule? Are you sure this is how government should make their decisions? Who is this Mr. Lacey and how fast can he be fired?
I think perhaps what he was suggesting is that the whole exercise itself was a waste of money. When starting the review board, the government must have known that the main recommendation of the report would be privatization and that the government's response would be to reject that recommendation. I think that leaves us with two possibilities: either 1) the government knowingly wasted money knowing they would reject the report, or 2) the government actually believes that the current system is the best option and believed the report would confirm that.

I think that either case raises questions about the government's ability to protect the "public interest".
I have a vague recollection that when the panel was set up, it was noticed that the members of the panel had previous history with the LCBO or other government-type operations. Perhaps the government thought this review would favour and/or validate the current system?

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Josh Oakes wrote:excerpt

Here's what we've got in BC...a public/private system that is the worst of both worlds. The government has retained distribution rights more or less. There are very few products available at the private shops that aren't available at the government ones. And they are all more expensive, because the private shops have to buy from the government.....

Here's the kicker - even though there are products you can get at in the private system - Belgian imports, US micros - you can't. Not one store sells them.
Re: the imports you speak of I've wondered about both price and availability in a fully or semi-privatized system. It's not all 'the American dream."

In some areas where the LCBO presently has good imports some suit would decide they are not important or profitable in a private system.

And in areas like Toronto where demand for imports was undeniable we could be paying twice what the LCBO sold something for. If we paid 5 bucks US for Orval (the price at Premiére Gourmet) you can be sure I wouldn't have a case in my cellar. Those prices are for the selective and demanding wealthy.

But if I understand correctly a fully-privatized system in the USA can get you good stuff, cheap with endless variety.
In Beerum Veritas

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lister
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Post by lister »

What I'd like to see, where it's possible like at Summerhill where there is a LCBO and Beer Store next to each other, is for the LCBO to stop carrying the big national macros, macro wannabes (like Sleeman and Steelback) and other large popular international brews letting the Beer Store handle them, and focus strictly on the smaller Ontario, Canadian and hard to get international brews. They should gut the current beer section there and upgrade it to the refridgerated enclosed beer section like what is at the Downsview LCBO. If that area isn't big enough then shift stuff around to get a suitable area.
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DukeofYork = Richard
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Post by DukeofYork = Richard »

You know why the LCBO will never stop selling macros, even right next to the Beer Store? For the same reason you see colossal pyramids of Corona before every long weekend ... it sells. The LCBO loses money on micros/interesting imports, and moving out the macros will just decrease foot traffic and ancillary purchases. Even at the Summerhill LCBO I regularly see cases of Ontario micros 3-6 months past their 'best' date.

If the beer section as a whole starts to underperform (as it will, once the Corona etc. is moved out) then things will get cut. And guess what, that will mean more shelf space for semi-crap (green bottled euro-lagers) than good stuff. As the LCBO and the Beer Store are different organisations, they are always going to worry about their own bottom lines first and cooperation far later.

My suggestion is to break up the Beer Store monopoly. This should be an equal access place for all brewers in Ontario, not a Molbatt tied distributing agreement.
Last edited by DukeofYork = Richard on Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JerCraigs
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Post by JerCraigs »

Belgian wrote:
Josh Oakes wrote:excerpt
But if I understand correctly a fully-privatized system in the USA can get you good stuff, cheap with endless variety.
...sitting on an unrefridgerated shelf, and no return policy for when its gone bad.

There are a lot of perks to TBS and LCBO that aren't provided in private systems. If the LCBO would shape up and let us get the stuff we want, I would have no real complaints.

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PierreBiere
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Post by PierreBiere »

Who is this Mr. Lacey and how fast can he be fired?
FYI, from the Toronto Star: "John Lacey, (is the) former vice-chair of the LCBO's board of directors who chaired the panel, ... the panel also included Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Gwen Boniface, consultant Ann Dumyn and former business executive Suzanne Labarge." Considering Lacey's former position and that there was a cop also on the panel, I was kind of surprised the report actually recommended privatization.

Also, even though the report did say that "For generations, alcohol control has been a core function of government. It must and will remain so," it also said that "it is not necessary for the government to own and operate retail outlets to ensure social responsibility in the sale of alcoholic beverages. Rather, it says, enforcement and pricing are the most effective means for controlling access to alcohol."

Finally, on the grocery store front - "Metro to buy A&P Canada"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... /Business/
A&P operates Dominion, Food Basics etc. Had the government considered privatization, we could have had our own Metro Joanette here in Toronto. Considering this report was the first real examination of the LCBO's role since 1927 I'm not holding my breath.

old faithful
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Post by old faithful »

I don't see the agenda being set by big business. We have a Liberal government in power, one whose policy generally is markedly more interventionist than a conservative (which is really liberal economic but never mind) government should approve, I say should since the last conservative government stuck with the status quo too on this issue. The power resides with this government to change the system, they are less beholden to corporate interests than Mike Harris' government was, for example, but choose through complacency I believe not to change anything. Alcohol regulation is they say a "core" role of government. Really? Certainly an important role, but core? It is unfortunate consumers are so ill-served. If they had the will to push the government on this Molbatt wouldn't make a darn difference, coporations have to follow the law and it could be changed by the Liberals if they wanted to, but that don't, and the people (or not enough of them) don't care enough to push them on it.

Gary

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northyorksammy
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Post by northyorksammy »

licenses- many of us can convince one manager of one store that we will frequent him is he freaks out and gets us a specialty section going.

current system-13 fat drunk buyers from the big stores have to approve anything to have them import-so no imagination and only safe popular mediocre choices

Steve Beaumont
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Post by Steve Beaumont »

Switch on the speed dial, bartowellers. It looks like I'll be on Ontario Today on CBC Radio One tomorrow (Wednesday) doing a phone-in about the report. Should be lively!

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

JerCraigs wrote:
Belgian wrote: But if I understand correctly a fully-privatized system in the USA can get you good stuff, cheap with endless variety.
...sitting on an unrefridgerated shelf, and no return policy for when its gone bad.

There are a lot of perks to TBS and LCBO that aren't provided in private systems. If the LCBO would shape up and let us get the stuff we want, I would have no real complaints.
True dat. But you could buy from a reliable source. The system would not essentially prevent availability of goods as it does now.

And I agree the LCBO does have it's advantages - freshness or you can return anything, even opened. LCBO has to stop stonewalling demand presented by our emails, by ratings polls, and by educated importers discussing viable options.
In Beerum Veritas

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Rob Creighton
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Post by Rob Creighton »

Wow! Chicken Little certainly lives here. I think a lot of our Canadian identity is reflected in that caustious indecision that separates us from Americans. Needless to say, the convoluted system we would end up with if a change was implemented, would reflect that indecision.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Rob Creighton wrote:I think a lot of our Canadian identity is reflected in that cautious indecision...
Well let's not rush into deciding what that Canadian identity is... we need a committee to stall and discuss it for 20 years before implementing some super-lame "Canadian identity" program costing us all lost billions. THAT, my friend, is pure Canadian VISION!
In Beerum Veritas

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lister
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Post by lister »

Steve Beaumont wrote:Switch on the speed dial, bartowellers. It looks like I'll be on Ontario Today on CBC Radio One tomorrow (Wednesday) doing a phone-in about the report. Should be lively!
Steve's on right now.

http://www.cbc.ca/ontariotoday/

Click on the listen live link on the left for online listening.
lister

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