Dogfish Head 60 MInute IPA

Al of Kingston · Post by **Al of Kingston** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:24 pm

Oh, they list it alright but it is just not there half the time.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:41 pm

biegaman wrote: ...The LCBO has a pretty strong monopoly remember? I think most of us BarTowelers understand the conspiracy here...

In reference to all of your post... I am sure there are some really intelligent people in the LCBO system who have some contact with reality. Some are obviously less in touch.

There is no reaon to say LCBO Seasonal items are 'unprofitable' if the LC's haphazard and limited selling of them almost prevents the products from gaining a solid niche market like certain wines do. Certainly the LC never, never test 'profitability'of these Seasonal items in a systematic, acceptable way, or even really look at how they sell in the United States.

If they looked across the border they'd see, well yes, Orval and Rochefort products DO sell well year-round on American shelves. So maybe LCBO should a) sell them year round on Ontario shelves or b) regulate small Ontario retailers to these sell 'unprofitable' niche products year round (& make a killing for their trouble.) Merely denying all these world-class products is an obtuse act of non-decision.

Yet before we rush to characterize LCBO's beauro-tendencies as malicious to public interests, let us admit there may as well be an absent-minded insularity to their out-of-touch ways that only just happens to frustrate beer advocates, rather unintentionally. Email them and they do reply to all suggestions; that's a real start for all of us and you, too are responsible.

So is it really a LC Conspiracy, or just real dumb beaurocratic happenstance that good beer gets neglected in Ontario, to the financial and political advantage of the Macro Mob? I'd say the Ineffectual Crown-Corp theory makes more sense than some neat-and-tidy Conspiracy.

biegaman · Post by **biegaman** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:36 am

Belgian wrote: ...political advantage of the Macro Mob? I'd say the Ineffectual Crown-Corp theory makes more sense than some neat-and-tidy Conspiracy.

Belgian, you nailed it. I agree in entirety with your post.
We are certainly in agreement, are we not? Your "Ineffectual Crown-Corp theory" was the same message I tried to convey in my post. Perhaps I was too implicit. Also, don't let the "we all know the conspiracy here" comment mislead you, I was merely being facetious.

Those are some excellent suggestions/ideas as well. I will certainly be emailing the LCBO. Perhaps we should, as a group, try to lobby for our interests? Has it been tried? Would it be futile? Probably, well I'll email them myself all the same.

While we're on the topic, I also have evidence we never landed on the moon and, oh, I also know who shot JFK.

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:59 pm

Esprit/Peter: Do you think the LCBO buyers you deal with might be interested in meeting up with some BarTowellers at Volo, or C'est What (it's closer to the LCBO - assuming they work out of the location down off Queen's Quay there) one night or afternoon, for a sort of casual 'focus group' type discussion? I would love to better understand their decision making process, and have an opportunity to share the Ontario 'craft beer lover' point-of-view with them...

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:06 am

Oh, sure... I'm positive the wonderfully responsive LCBO people would jump at the chance to explain their decision-making process to us, and to gather empirical public input, especially for the higher craft-level niche market they're so avidly interested in serving.

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:36 am

Belgian wrote:Oh, sure... I'm positive the wonderfully responsive LCBO people would jump at the chance to explain their decision-making process to us, and to gather empirical public input, especially for the higher craft-level niche market they're so avidly interested in serving.

Obviously you're being sarcastic, I get that... and you know what? You might be right, maybe they don't give a monkey's about what we think... but I try to be a solution-oriented person, it's very easy to complain about stuff, I'm attempting to do something about it...

Peter/Esprit - If you can PM with with their contact info, I'll gladly get in touch with them myself and see if I can't co-ordinate something, see how responsive they seem, or if they even call me back.

Personally, I've had a reasonably good dealing with the LCBO, on that one occassion when I did a private order of 3 cases of Sierra Nevada... Despite the negative and pessimistic views on this forum, from what I remember, I actually DID get my product, within the timeframe they gave me and at the price they gave me, so it's not all doom and gloom. I'd like to think that if we communicate constructive criticism and feedback directly, to the right people, we might be able to affect change. If we honestly care and want change, then I don't see the harm in trying!

Wheatsheaf · Post by **Wheatsheaf** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:04 am

http://www.lcbotrade.com/contacts.htm

Scroll down about two-thirds and you'll find some phone numbers for the Beer and Special Markets category; you could always give those a try.

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:29 am

I was hoping that Peter from Esprit could do the intro if possible, I think that would have a better chance of success than a cold call, but if nothing comes of that, I'll use that info you provided, thank you sir!

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:18 pm

JWalter wrote:
Belgian wrote:Oh, sure... I'm positive the wonderfully responsive LCBO people would jump at the chance to explain their decision-making process to us, and to gather empirical public input, especially for the higher craft-level niche market they're so avidly interested in serving.
Obviously you're being sarcastic, I get that...

and you know what? You might be right, maybe they don't give a monkey's about what we think... but I try to be a solution-oriented person, it's very easy to complain about stuff, I'm attempting to do something about it...

I was alluding to Esprit's repeated comments about the LCBO's impenetrably obtuse 'selection process' of seasonals. He's been down this frustrating road before but if you think a few Toronto guys meeting them will make a difference, well, Peter what's your view? I'm free if you are.

By the way, making the deficiencies of the LCBO (humorously) evident on a website all Ontario can read is no bad way to both raise awareness and invoke people's interest to change it, if that ever helps. So there ya go.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:47 pm

Sierra Nevada will not sell to the LCBO as the brewery demands refrigerated transportation, refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated retail displays...the LCBO will not guarantee #1 or #3 and cannot do #2.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:35 pm

esprit wrote:Sierra Nevada will not sell to the LCBO as the brewery demands refrigerated transportation, refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated retail displays...the LCBO will not guarantee #1 or #3 and cannot do #2.

Mabe the Beer Store could handle it better, or is it equally lame in handling beer?

Peter, thanks so much for the shred of understanding as to what the hell is going on in Ontario.

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:38 pm

esprit wrote:Sierra Nevada will not sell to the LCBO as the brewery demands refrigerated transportation, refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated retail displays...the LCBO will not guarantee #1 or #3 and cannot do #2.

Yet they will do private orders to customers via the LCBO, even though #1 cannot be guaranteed. Very odd...

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:55 pm

GregClow wrote:
esprit wrote:Sierra Nevada will not sell to the LCBO as the brewery demands refrigerated transportation, refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated retail displays...the LCBO will not guarantee #1 or #3 and cannot do #2.
Yet they will do private orders to customers via the LCBO, even though #1 cannot be guaranteed. Very odd...

May have to do with much briefer overall expected storage - it's in the customer's home very quickly, at which point #2 and 3 become less important.

I assume the 1-2-3 criteria are to protect SN's reputation when stuff is stored for some weeks, then displayed for possibly more weeks, and eventually Joe Customer cracks it and expects to taste what the Brewer intended.

Wayyy too much time tioday...

detritus · Post by **detritus** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:01 pm

As I think I've mentioned before - I've seen SN products all over (retail) un-refridgerated. From Premier in Buffalo to Asda in the UK.

With the fragmented US distribution system, I don't see how they could possibly excercise this kind of control. (Maybe 1 & 2, but definitely not 3.)

-Josh

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:22 pm

esprit wrote:Sierra Nevada will not sell to the LCBO as the brewery demands refrigerated transportation, refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated retail displays...the LCBO will not guarantee #1 or #3 and cannot do #2.

Peter - You've misunderstood my post, I was sticking up for the LCBO based on a past experience, I'll refresh your memory:

About 2 years ago I private ordered 3 cases of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale through the LCBO, here's the thread:

http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic ... 40&start=0

No offense to Esprit, but at the time he claimed:

esprit wrote:You're dreaming if you think that the case of Sierra Nevada will ever arrive here...furthermore, if it ever did, I guarantee you that your cost will 2 or 3 times what the LCBO quoted...

Anyhow, if you read the thread you'll see that I did actually get the beer, in the time frame the LCBO gave me and at the price they quoted me...

Anyhow, no biggie, I still think Esprit is a good guy, I bought a case of Cassis from him over the winter...

So what I'd like to do is try to affect some change. I don't have an ego complex or anything, who knows what will happen?? I'm not guaranteeing a result, but I'm willing to take a stab at it... An article in the Star by Jon Filson has caused a BIG increase in the exposure on Bar Towel, so let's use this momentum, leverage this exposure and try to make something happen... Post the results on the forum and promote more transparency in the decision making processes...

Based on my understanding of Cass's vision of what this site is all about, it's not just a place for beer lovers to talk about beer, it's a forum for all parties involved in the industry to connect, we have brewers, we have importers, we have bar owners, but the 2 largest entities in beer distribution (the Beer Store, and the LCBO) are not represented, at least not in an active capacity... Let's attempt to get them involved, I think the key is that it's an open and constructive dialog... If you were an LCBO Beer Buyer, would you logon to the site, and post in the current Bartowel climate??? They'd probably get flamed out like Matthew Letki, (a former brewer at Steamwhistle who sadly came on here and got attacked and never came back...) the result of which terminates the conversation and eliminates the possibility for arriving at an improved understanding. I'm sure the buyers aren't EVIL or something, I'm sure they have valid reasons for making the decisions they make, at the moment there is a disconnect and we, the beer enthusiasts don't understand this decision making process and have no exposure or understanding or access to it...

So, Peter, if you're reading this, I'd be very interested in having you introduce me, be it via email or something, to some of your LCBO contacts, and I'd like to potentially arrange a little round table informal focus group type meeting, provide them with the opportunity to chat with a group of us Bartowellers and for us to provide some feedback to them, of a few quality pints of course! Whaddayasay??? What do we have to lose?