suggestion for the OCB

[GregClow]

You know what would be nice?

If the Ontario Craft Brewers updated their website, which hasn't been touched in a year or so.

And while they're at it, maybe they could change the bits of the site that only work in IE, so us folks who use Firefox could actually use all of the features.

Just sayin'...

[SteelbackGuy]

They seemed to have got the ball rolling fairly good at the beginning, and now seemingly do not even exist.

[GregClow]

They seemed to have got the ball rolling fairly good at the beginning, and now seemingly do not even exist.

They're doing a lot of good stuff behind the scenes, especially when it comes to working with the LCBO to promote craft beer. The mini-festival they did at Summerhill back in the summer was a great event. I've also seen a fair number of bars & restaurants that have table cards or blurbs on their menus that mention the OCB in relation to the beers that they had on tap or in bottles.

So they're definitely still quite active. It's just strange that they would allow their website to become so out of date and useless when they've seem to be going strong otherwise.

[JB]

From what I understand, the OCB is transferring over to a new server/webmaster shortly, hence the overdue site update. It should be totally revamped and much more user friendly and detailed as soon as they've got that sorted out. The OCB is still very much active and working with the LCBO and TBS and a number of critical issues for all members. Events such as the Summerhill OCB launch, LCBO Beer guys and gals training seminars and radio and print advertising are just some of the things we've been able to execute in the past few months. Stay tuned for more!

[liammckenna]

How about developing a meaningful quality standard for consumers? Hopefully something with a little more guts than 'small batches, unpasteurized, artificial additive and preservative free.'

Someone needs to really articulate what's different on a scale that means something when I walk into the LCBO or TBS in terms of value added even if I know nothing about the individual brewer. (think VQA - although perhaps not the best example)

I was excited when the org formed as I was positive this would emerge. So far, nothing.

Spell it out. For a lot of consumers, if you can't spell it, they can't hear it.

Pax.

Liam

[georgemilbrandt]

[quote="liammckenna"]How about developing a meaningful quality standard for consumers? Hopefully something with a little more guts than 'small batches, unpasteurized, artificial additive and preservative free.'

Someone needs to really articulate what's different on a scale that means something when I walk into the LCBO or TBS in terms of value added even if I know nothing about the individual brewer. (think VQA - although perhaps not the best example)

I would disagree with you that the simple statement of quality that you posted above does not have enough "guts." With one or two exceptions that statement pretty well sums up the difference between the OCB members and the factory brewers. Unfortunately they have, as a group, decided not to pursue even such a basic quality statement yet. Individually though, they are willing to accept our criteria for a "craft beer":

C'est What will only serve beer that meets these criteria:

1. Single batch brewing. The contents of each brew kettle are used for one brand only.
2. All natural ingredients. The ingredients used should be easily recognized as “natural” and, if processed, must retain their essential character.
3. Fresh. Beer tastes best fresh. Pasteurized beer will not be served at C’est What.
4. Our beer list is Canadian made only.

If the OCB adopted a similar set of criteria to be eligible for a VQA style seal it would be a major step forward for the beer consumer.

[JerCraigs]

George, I don't wish to be overly critical of those guidelines, I think they are a great criteria particularly for CW.

That said, like the reinheitsgebot (sp?) you can produce a beer that meets those criteria yet remains thoroughly boring, possibly even bad.

I agree that establishing some criteria would be a great step, but the defining of craft beer in this way does little to guaruntee a good/interesting/creative etc. product. Defining "craft" by the process does not necessarily address the outcome/product.
Whether or not labels such as VQA are sufficient to do this is another story altogther and I dont have time to go there

(thus ends my procrastinatory comment)

[midlife crisis]

Don't think I agree with that. George's criteria are objective, whereas "boring" is a value judgment. A well-made (all natural, non-pasteurised) beer that is boring to some of us might be quite appealing to less experienced beer drinkers and has its place in the market.

[JerCraigs]

Don't think I agree with that. George's criteria are objective, whereas "boring" is a value judgment. A well-made (all natural, non-pasteurised) beer that is boring to some of us might be quite appealing to less experienced beer drinkers and has its place in the market.

I don't disagree with that, but quality is thus a relative term. It depends on what you want the criteria or standard to MEAN. Those are great for helping support Canadian "craft" brewers but do little to tell you if the bottle/pint you are about to purchase tastes any better than the Molson Canadian down the road.

[Rob Creighton]

Meaningful criteria - hmmm
I'm all for banning fruit from beer because I hate fruit beers...maybe thats just my criteria and not meaningful enough.
The issue of what is acceptable in a 'quality' beer or style is an interesting one. I would like to see ingredient listings but not some list that has been edited by the marketing department.
The VQA method of entering certain products that meet deliniated criteria is appealing because all the wineries have the option of selling most of their product as non-VQA. To have someone going around using their often uneducated and biased perspective to declare whether a brewery is good or bad has failure written all over it though I like creating a standard for operations that is useable by all breweries.

After watching the Ontario beer industry grow since the late '70's, I can honestly say that the accessibility to more interesting and higher quality beers is higher than ever. That being said I still see new and old small brewers that have no idea of professional brewing standards, don't have access to adequate technology and therefore put out marginal or bad product. It is not that they want to put out crap, it is simply when things spiral out of control.

That is where a standard in the OCB could help all small brewers most.

[JerCraigs]

Obviously what tastes good or not is subjective. I don't think education is the issue, since people that know plenty about beer may still like something others consider dull and boring (which is again subjective).

Im not sure what a brewer would prefer to hear though, that his product doesn't have that "Wow!" factor, or that he is incompetent. Tough call really.

[Asst. Grain Shoveller]

Hi Everyone
Here's my opinion on the OCB material in the above posts.
In case you want to understand my qualifications, i sit on the board of directors for the ocb and i also sit on the marketing committee.
The OCB does have a huge amount of activities going on throughout the year. Please note this is also on top of Each member brewery running their own businesses. All of us are committed, but we do have limited time and limited funds. (If anyone would like to step up with a financial donation for the ocb, to help us local brewers, it would be greatly appreciated.)
The Website:
We only have limited funds and cannot refresh it on a regular basis.
Don't forget the marketing committee has to work for the 30 or so members and sometimes it can be like herding cats.
The Quality Standard:
There is a quality committee working on finalizing this portion of our OCB standards. Once again it takes a substantial amount of time to get this done as well as get the brewers who sit on this committee together.
(we don't let them have any beer until they come up with something appropriate)
The People behind the OCB.
There are a few key people in the ocb who don't get much acknowlegement or thanks for all the work they do, John, Sara, Mary, Lisa, Stella & Liz.
These people do a fantastic job of making a lot happen, with very limited budgets and tons of government reporting and procedures, Not to mention using their expertise to keep us breweries moving forward on the right track. The time and effort they put in is huge.
We are still a growing and learning organization. It takes time ( a lot more than you think) to make things happen, and i think we are on the right track.
Cheers
Ken

[JerCraigs]

Thanks for jumping in Ken!

[Belgian]

...The Quality Standard:
- There is a quality committee working on finalizing this portion of our OCB standards.

....We are still a growing and learning organization.... and i think we are on the right track.

Sounds like some OCB member beer may get better... eventually. Or will it? Will all of today's members retain membership in the future, whether or not their products do meet those 'finalized standards' you speak of? How will standards be enforced, and how will brewers' output be reviewed - as ongoing concerns? Who will be the judge of others' beer?

I'm certainly not putting down the OCB or the real efforts of some members, but at present the OCB name seems more a 'concept' than a practical institution.

Ultimately I think people will be guided by their taste in good beer, so for the OCB to mean something to these potential buyers the "OCB" label has to correspond to their taste in definitely good, no-excuses beer. Anything less will make everyone skeptical of the OCB label (as they now are of the VQA.)

What a task at hand, good luck.

[liammckenna]

C'est What will only serve beer that meets these criteria:

1. Single batch brewing. The contents of each brew kettle are used for one brand only.
2. All natural ingredients. The ingredients used should be easily recognized as “natural” and, if processed, must retain their essential character.
3. Fresh. Beer tastes best fresh. Pasteurized beer will not be served at C’est What.
4. Our beer list is Canadian made only.

If the OCB adopted a similar set of criteria to be eligible for a VQA style seal it would be a major step forward for the beer consumer.

Sorry for the delay in response, have been travelling.

With the greatest respect for your establishment, ethos and service George, must respond.

1/ Single batch brewing - that would eliminate blended lambics - often stand alone batches too powerful on their own - necessitates blending of old and young batches usually. Origins of stout dispensing involved blending yesterdays barrels with todays barrels freshly tapped. In both winemaking and distilling, blending is an extremely important aspect of the 'art'. Why not beer? What about high-gravity brewing? I know a lot of small brewers doing high gravity brewing but not high gravity fermenting like large brewers.

2/ All natural ingredients - many small brewers utilize things like silica hydrogel and PVPP as stabilizing/filtration aids - both appear in miniscule but detectable quantities in final beverage. CO2 is artificially added to most commercial (large or small) beers. Nitro-pours include added dissolved nitrogen. I won't delve into the whole water treatment aspect of 'all natural' except to say I know of no brewer who does not undertake this
inherently artificial process in some way. Alginates and enzymes are worthy of discussion as well even on the 'craft' side.

3/ Fresh - I agree with your thinking regarding pasteurization but for a different reason. There are certain heat labile components in beer that are positive nutritionally (some vitamins and enzymes) but diminished by pasteurization. That being said, I must admit, many of the truly fantastic beers I've enjoyed have been pasteurized. From a flavour standpoint, if done correctly (sadly this is not often so), it has no flavour impact at all.

4/Locally brewed - 100% agreement there. As I've mentioned before - I wouldn't buy bread from Europe, why would I buy European beer?


It worries me as a consumer that the large brewers corruption of this simple, elegant thing we know as beer may insidiously creep into my local micro brew - from managerial pressures of efficiency and productivity and market pressures of product aesthetics. In the absence of an effective standard, I can easily see it. Enzymes in the brewhouse from genetically engineered bacterial sources, antioxidants like ascorbic acid, propylene glycol alginate, gum arabic, dextrans , carboxymethyl cellulose etc. These things could, theoretically, legitimately and legally be found in a beer bearing an 'All natural' moniker. As a consumer, I could not object more strenuously. Perhaps I'll just stick to those I know for certain aren't messin' with my pint. As a brewer, this is a lot easier for me than your average punter.

This is where an OCB quality mark could help. I think small brewers really need to define that line in the sand between us and them. As much for the integrity and distinction of the craft industry as for consumer friendly information.

If this pisses 'them' off, that would be a good thing.

Here's the kind of 'guts' I'd be looking for:

Absence of the following:

1/ Non-mash sources of enzymes - not limited to the following: alpha-acetolactate decarboxylase, amylase, glucamylase, glucanase, pentosanase, protease, ficin, bromalain, papain, pepsin,
2/ Preservatives and antioxidants - sulphites, ascorbates, erythorbates, etc.
3/ Foam enhancers - Alginates - other than Irish Moss
4/ Viscosity enhancers - non-mash sources of dextrins, methylcellulose,
5/ Hop extracts containing traces of solvents like methylene chloride or hexane
6/ Non fermentable sources of colour - Caramel, tannins
7/ Other processing aids - dimethylpolysiloxane, hydrogen peroxide, Acacia gum/gum Arabic, yeast food(s) etc.

I would also like to see designated on the label:
GMO’s
Allergens - dairy, wheat, soy, nuts, sulphites, eggs
Suitability/unsuitability for vegetarians.

A little more than my '2 cents' but two cents doesn't get you much these days.

Pax.

Liam McKenna