Beer and the Election

[JerCraigs]

Why? Because a brewer can get a start by selling through a single store, then gardually expand to more stores so long as they can get people to buy their beer. Neither the Beer Store nor the LCBO can offer that kind of retail model. They're more or less all or none.

That is not entirely true. I believe that The Beer Store does offer breweries the option to either pay a system wide listing fee (In the order of $40k? I'm really not sure) or pay per store that they want to be in.

Similarly, it *used* to be that once you were on the general list, you could get into any LCBO store where you could convince the manager to carry you in, but I think there have been a lot of changes that hamper that ability (which others are likely more knowledgeable about than I, and have posted a bit about on here.)

[tuqueboy]

That is not entirely true. I believe that The Beer Store does offer breweries the option to either pay a system wide listing fee (In the order of $40k? I'm really not sure) or pay per store that they want to be in.

It's $250 per store per product per size, or $50,000 across the entire system. I.E., it's $250 if I wanted to list six-packs of tuqueboy's imperial stout in one store, another $250 if i wanted to list 12s. So in other words, if you want to list in a bunch of stores in different sizes, it adds up pretty quick, and the 50K starts to look kinda good (at least by comparison). that said, if a brewer truly does want to start out slowly and locally, $250 doesn't seem too onerous. i guess the flipside is, though, that paying that cash doesn't guarantee you any kind of decent shelf placement/signage. in fact, the 50K only guarantees that you'll be stocked for a year. so in other words, TBS can take the 50K, give you shitty shelfspace, then a year later say `thanks for the money, now fuck off.' but knowing the way the food/beverage retail market works in most parts of the western world, i can't say TBS is really all that much different. Loblaws, sobeys, dominion, etc. all make a huge portion of their profit from placement fees. would a different system of private retailers (i.e. corner stores) really be any different? can't see how they would be, at least with regards to this issue.

[PRMason]

Tuqueboy Imperial Stout eh? Hmm, is that name trademarked

[tuqueboy]

Tuqueboy Imperial Stout eh? Hmm, is that name trademarked

Colonel By wore a tuque, didn't he?

[PRMason]

Yes, a pink and purple number, with a feather boa..no wait that was his cousin, colonel Bi.

[shintriad]

Yes, a pink and purple number, with a feather boa..no wait that was his cousin, colonel Bi.

I LOL'd.

Another article, this time a great editorial by Don Martin.

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... 72c87c2bb5

[david henman]

...i disagree. for one thing, i have been to the US, and alberta, where you can buy liquor in privately owned stores. the selection is horrible, the service completely non-existent and the prices nothing to celebrate.

on the other hand, it is a pleasure to shop at the lcbo. the staff are generally enthusiastic and very knowledgeable. the selection is excellent and, often, absolutely astounding. i'm also a huge fan of the monthly lcbo magazine.

the prices are suspect, as they seem to creep up with alarming regularity. adding private profit to that is unlikely to improve anything. as well, i don't like the exhorbantly expensive inserts in the toronto star - i naively assume those are paid for by the liquor companies/advertizers and NOT by our tax dollars!

as for going "where the US is headed" - no thanks.

-dh

The corporation that is the LCBO needs breaking up like Ontario Hydro.

An archaic by-product of post-prohibiition policy, the LCBO now exists only by deceptions, fallacies, gainstaying of position and a whole BUCKET of "red herrings" meant to alarm us so we cling to its absurd parody of retail.

Again, eliminating the LCBO (& with it sadly a lot of nice people's jobs*) will have some 'bad' secondary consequences, but not all bad [let's be real here!] and at least the situation will have a clean, honest taste of hard-working capitalism. [*The most competent, knowledgable LC staff will find private-sector work & also get to express a greater passion in their calling.]

I believe getting rid of certain provincial-level inefficiencies would lead to a much stronger, more independent Ontario - and given where the US is headed, the more independent and less wasteful we can be, the better our collective future.

[david henman]

...regarding selling beer and wine at convenience stores and grocery chains:

i am not against it, but i believe it is naive to think that you'll be able to pick up a nice, craft-brewed india pale ale or a lovely australian shiraz at your local mac's milk store. obviously, certain stores in certain urban areas will cater to a more sophisticated clientele but, for the most part, you'll see the same thing you see at your local depanneur in ville lasalle: molson, labatt, coors lite and "table" wine.

with the store owner's profit margin added to the base price.

-dh

[david henman]

...regarding the MMP, i agree that we need a better alternative to the present system, but i think we can do much, much better than the MMP system, which means 25% more politicians, and opens the door to a flood of fringe parties.

-dh

[detritus]

...i disagree. for one thing, i have been to the US, and alberta, where you can buy liquor in privately owned stores. the selection is horrible, the service completely non-existent and the prices nothing to celebrate.

You clearly haven't been in the right stores in the US.

-Josh

[Bobbyok]

...regarding selling beer and wine at convenience stores and grocery chains:

i am not against it, but i believe it is naive to think that you'll be able to pick up a nice, craft-brewed india pale ale or a lovely australian shiraz at your local mac's milk store. obviously, certain stores in certain urban areas will cater to a more sophisticated clientele but, for the most part, you'll see the same thing you see at your local depanneur in ville lasalle: molson, labatt, coors lite and "table" wine.

with the store owner's profit margin added to the base price.

-dh

I would much rather pay more for better selection at a single store in my entire province (which I do quite often given that NS has allowed 4 private stores to open) than have to endure a half assed slightly expanded selection province-wide that is selected by a government employee.

No one here believes that every private store in Alberta or the US or even every depanneur in QC has a better selection than the LCBO or the Beer Store. The point is that in the US, AB, or Quebec, any store owner can choose to offer an expanded selection. If you didn't find good selection or service in Alberta, you didn't go to the right stores - Kensington Wine Market and Willow Park in Calgary are two examples. Kensington alone has every one of the widely available Trappists (Achel, Chimay, Orval, Rochefort, and Westmalle) plus St. Bernardus including the 60th anniversary Special Edition. Not on seasonal release for the first and only time in ages, but on regular release. On top of that they have a bunch of US Micros Ontario has never seen - Lagunitas, Fish Tale, Flying Dog, He'Brew for example. And unlike Ontario, when they sell out they'll actually order more (see the old stories about DFH 60 Minute for reference).

Quebec and the US are the same way - most stores have Molson and Labatt. But then you have Joanette and Rahman among others in Montreal, De La Rive outside of Quebec City, and so one. Quebec is unique in that their system supports local breweries only - but when those local breweries include Charlevoix, Trois Mousquetaires, Bieropholie and now even Dieu du Ciel, they're doing something right. John's Grocery in Iowa City is the best example of a great store in the US I can think of. If Iowa city has a market that can support such a store, do you really think Toronto doesn't?

Making changes to the system in Canada is not (nor should it be) about every store on every corner having wall to wall Ontario Craft Beer, US Micros, and Belgians. It's about having the choice to have one of those stores open where a market exists. The LCBO can't and won't do it.

[Pub Style]

Well said Bobbyok

[Belgian]

...i disagree. for one thing, i have been to the US, and alberta, where you can buy liquor in privately owned stores. the selection is horrible, the service completely non-existent and the prices nothing to celebrate.

You clearly haven't been in the right stores in the US.

-Josh

There are at Premier some very reasonably priced selections - stuff they should easily be able to sell here, but won't.

Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout, for 1.80 - 2.20 a bottle. Plus depending on your budget, the sky is the limit for selection - and the staff are great as well. Three for three. Mr. Henman.

If there were more private sores in a place like Toronto competition would dictate that some would actually be really good. That is why places like Bar Volo come into existence, the 'upper tier' of clientele with taste are out there and won't settle for less.

[david henman]

I would much rather pay more for better selection at a single store in my entire province (which I do quite often given that NS has allowed 4 private stores to open) than have to endure a half assed slightly expanded selection province-wide that is selected by a government employee.

...that is unfortunate, and certainly not the case here in ontario.

No one here believes that every private store in Alberta or the US or even every depanneur in QC has a better selection than the LCBO or the Beer Store. The point is that in the US, AB, or Quebec, any store owner can choose to offer an expanded selection. If you didn't find good selection or service in Alberta, you didn't go to the right stores

...exactly! in ontario, practically any lcbo or beer store is the "right" store, in that context. if they were privatized, that would change, and drastically. how far would i be forced to travel to find a store that has a half decent selection?

- Kensington Wine Market and Willow Park in Calgary are two examples. Kensington alone has every one of the widely available Trappists (Achel, Chimay, Orval, Rochefort, and Westmalle) plus St. Bernardus including the 60th anniversary Special Edition.

...again, that is wonderful, but ONLY if those stores are accessible to you, and NOT if you have to drive halfway across the city, or province, to get to them.

Quebec and the US are the same way - most stores have Molson and Labatt. But then you have Joanette and Rahman among others in Montreal, De La Rive outside of Quebec City, and so one. Quebec is unique in that their system supports local breweries only - but when those local breweries include Charlevoix, Trois Mousquetaires, Bieropholie and now even Dieu du Ciel, they're doing something right.

...while i don't doubt for a minute that these stores exist, in my twenty years living in the poorer areas of montreal, and my several times a year visits to the province since i left in '86, the only "exotic" beer i have ever seen in a grocery or convenience store is heineken.

John's Grocery in Iowa City is the best example of a great store in the US I can think of. If Iowa city has a market that can support such a store, do you really think Toronto doesn't?

...again, and i mentioned this in my first post, i have no doubt certain stores in certain areas will cater to a more sophisticated clientele. if you happen to live in newmarket, however, good luck!

its difficult not to get the impression that many of the people who want to see beer, wine and liquor privatized are, in reality, against government ownership and control.

that, to me, is an entirely different and unrelated issue.

-dh

[david henman]

Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout, for 1.80 - 2.20 a bottle. Plus depending on your budget, the sky is the limit for selection - and the staff are great as well. Three for three. Mr. Henman.

...i have no idea what that means. if you're saying that the beer store here could do much better than it does, you'll not get an argument from me.

If there were more private sores in a place like Toronto competition would dictate that some would actually be really good. That is why places like Bar Volo come into existence, the 'upper tier' of clientele with taste are out there and won't settle for less.

...the key word here is "some". as have stated clearly at least three times now, i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that certain stores in certain areas would have little choice but to cater to a sophisticated clientele.

do you seriously think that, if privatization occured, i would be able to pick up "Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout" at bubba's milk, gas and adult video store in keswick?

-dh