Southern Tier IPA / Dog Fish Head - where art thou?

[Jon Walker]

R&R are a great company with excellent customer service so...anything's possible. I just got back from Vancouver and I can tell you we already get bargain prices here on U.S. stuff. Just about every Rogue beer is available there and the prices, despite the shorter shipping distance, are 20-30% higher on average that the same products here.

If some people actually buy less ST IPA at $14.10 than they would at $12.95 so much the better for those of us who know it's a relative bargain even at the higher price point.

I appreciate ST IPA (and R&R for their part) and have been buying at $14. But it's a captive market right now.
If DFH60 comes in at a lower price as expected, ST IPA will no longer be a relative bargain and sales will suffer.

If DFH 60 comes in at the same price quoted by the LCBO in the spring I'll be surprised. Even if it works out to $1 less per six pack that the ST anybody making a distinction between the two beers based on price rather than personal taste has likely missed the point.

[sstackho]

I believe the Brooklyn Lager went down in price after its initial release to the LCBO.

[Roland + Russell]

Hello everyone and thank you for your thoughts and suggestions...

The discussion of whether the price of ST IPA should decrease because it is good business practice or as an act of good will has little or no impact on the reality of the market. Perhaps there is an impression that agencies that represent foreign producers of alcohol can act as importers or wholesalers and as such enjoy the flexibility of setting the price. In Ontario, that is NOT the case.

Many of the producers that Roland + Russell represent here in Ontario work very hard and have reached the point where they have no problem selling their products before they are even bottled. For example, when we started dealing with De Struise, we did not even think about suggesting to them what the price for 2005 Pannepot Grand Reserva should be set at for this market. Why? We were lucky to even convince them to enter this market and even luckier to get this beer that was produced in such a limited quantity (only 3000 L). To illustrate the market situation for some of these beers, here is a quote from an email we received today:

"Hello , my name is David and I live in belgium !!!
I'm very interested in Belgian beers , but sorry to here we can get no Earthmonk or Pannepot Grand Reserva !!!!!!
I made a phone call with Urbain from The Struise Brouwers , he told me the beer go's to Japan and Canada .
My question = is it possible to buy this beer from you , money is no problem !!!
I can pay you from here in Belgium and I pick the cases up here in Belgium , ones you received the money !!!
Please advice me if this is possible , please note money is no problem and I'm interested in 20 cases Earthmonk and 20 cases Pannepot Grand Reserva !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope you can help me out .
Many many thanks in advance and I hope you understand my problem .
Kind regards , David"

Southern Tier is not much different - they presell everything they brew and that's why it is so difficult to bring in some of their gems such as Chokolat and Pumking. Additionally, some markets have simpler and more streamlined procedures that offer additional reasons for producers to sell there. In quite a few markets, it is standard procedure for buyers to pay for product before it leaves the brewery - any other way threatens their survival.

Ultimately, it is the producer that sets the price. As agents we can provide guidance as to the local market situation, information on the competition, long term prospects etc. The wholesale price point is the producer's decision and we respect that.

To that wholesale price, added are agency commission and transportation. The LCBO then adds their markup, taxes, duties, fees etc. Compliance charges and lab fees are deducted from the payment that the LCBO pays the producer. After the producer is paid, they pay our commission. Very often, through reduced commission, our agency absorbs some or even all of the costs associated with compliance, lab testing and advertising. When you see a glossy brochure, it is paid for by producers and their agents. When you sip a free sample drink at a promotional event at one of the stores, it is paid for by the agency that represents that product, at full cost.

Additionally, there are many other unexpected costs such as transportation increases, currency fluctuations and increasing costs of raw material and packaging that must be absorbed one way or another. Sometimes, they all pile up at once and the burden must be shared.


Prices are valid for one year and during that period the supplier may apply to have a special one time discount for that product. We can tell you that both ST and R+R would love to bring the prices down, and we will do our best to do so. Southern Tier is bravely piloting through the marketplace here, while many of their counterparts in the US are not even contemplating a similar move. It is important to remember that we can't compare our marketplace with any of the US states, and thus we can't compare prices. Mind you sometimes we have lower prices here. As many of you recall Thomas Hardy's Ale and Urbock 23 were cheaper here than in the US.

We are truly blessed to have such a passionate and educated clientele and we wish we could do more to make all of our beers more affordable, but there is only so much we can impact. After all, we share the same passion and goal of having great beers available year round here in Ontario.

[bujubanton]

no offence...I appreciate the work you do and I realize it's a hassle to bring good beer into Ontario. but that last post read like a corporate press release.
ST was supposed to be $12. It came in nearly 20 per cent higher.
I read in the National Post, I think it was, that ST wants to bring down the price from $14.10...
the strips on the label problem is solved...oil prices are going down etc. etc...
every other business in the world has some price flexibility...and frankly, I think you'd sell a significant amount more product at $12 than $14....it makes sense to make the price closer to that of other premium six packs..

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Just a heads up on the Beer Store return situations.

Tried to return some Southern Tier IPA to the Beer Store today, and sure enough got a hassle. He told me it was an American bottle with no deposit. I told him that it's sold at the LCBO and I want my money for the bottle. He grudgingly obliged and handed over the cash.

The best part of this story is that mixed in with my returns were a couple bottles of Samuel Adams Imperial Pilsner, which he accepted and gave me a return on. Fucking tool.

[grub]

Just a heads up on the Beer Store return situations.

that's funny. i usually do my returns about $20 worth at a time, and it's generally about 90% things purchased outside ontario. i've never had them even raise an eyebrow. once the guy thought the tyranena and surly stuff looked neat, but he didn't even question it. they seem to always have a lineup for returns, so maybe they just don't care when they're busy...

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Just a heads up on the Beer Store return situations.

that's funny. i usually do my returns about $20 worth at a time, and it's generally about 90% things purchased outside ontario. i've never had them even raise an eyebrow. once the guy thought the tyranena and surly stuff looked neat, but he didn't even question it. they seem to always have a lineup for returns, so maybe they just don't care when they're busy...

Strange man. Around here if you try to return anything even remotely outside the sphere of macro crap you get a funny look and a comment. It's the main reason I usually just throw my empties out, too much hassle from the know-nothings behind the counter.

[Torontoblue]

every other business in the world has some price flexibility...and frankly, I think you'd sell a significant amount more product at $12 than $14....it makes sense to make the price closer to that of other premium six packs..

You do realise this is the LCBO we are dealing with here, and flexibility isn't in their dictionary!! Besides, prices can't just be changed on a whim. There are processes to go through and approvals. Know the industry before complaining about something you really don't know much about!

[esprit]

At the risk of repeating myself, it is the supplier and agent who determine the retail price based upon an LCBO formula. They can raise or lower the price at whim so don't blame the LCBO for pricing other than the fact that their charges for stickering and strip-labelling bottles would be considered usurious anywhere else.

[Torontoblue]

At the risk of repeating myself, it is the supplier and agent who determine the retail price based upon an LCBO formula. They can raise or lower the price at whim so don't blame the LCBO for pricing other than the fact that their charges for stickering and strip-labelling bottles would be considered usurious anywhere else.

Peter, there is a limit to the amount of times a product price can be changed in a week/month/year, is there not?

[bujubanton]

why is there a limit to changing the price? Is this the Beijing LCBO?

They promised it at $12..there were some screwups wtih the first shipment..so the price was higher. We all found out why.
Those reasons are gone.
Why can't they lower the price? Is it because Mao Tse McGuinty has issued a decree?

[Torontoblue]

why is there a limit to changing the price? Is this the Beijing LCBO?

They promised it at $12..there were some screwups wtih the first shipment..so the price was higher. We all found out why.
Those reasons are gone.
Why can't they lower the price? Is it because Mao Tse McGuinty has issued a decree?

Ask a question in a serious matter or please, pretty please, shut up. You bring absolutely nothing to this forum and are just a god-damn pissy moaning pest!!!!

[toweringpine]

why is there a limit to changing the price? Is this the Beijing LCBO?

They promised it at $12..there were some screwups wtih the first shipment..so the price was higher. We all found out why.
Those reasons are gone.
Why can't they lower the price? Is it because Mao Tse McGuinty has issued a decree?

Ask a question in a serious matter or please, pretty please, shut up. You bring absolutely nothing to this forum and are just a god-damn pissy moaning pest!!!!

Buju's comment makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense is his being subjected to attacks every time he speaks his mind.

[lagerale]

I would like to see a price drop....but if I was selling it, a product already with limited quantities, and is selling out regardless of price...what is the motivation to lower it? Perhaps more competition would lower it, but oh yeah, there is no competition out there right now.

[JerCraigs]

why is Is this the Beijing LCBO?... Why can't they lower the price? Is it because Mao Tse McGuinty has issued a decree?

Ask a question in a serious matter or please, pretty please, shut up. You bring absolutely nothing to this forum and are just a god-damn pissy moaning pest!!!!

Buju's comment makes sense to me.

What doesn't make sense is his being subjected to attacks every time he speaks his mind.

While Torontoblue's response may be a bit harsh, his point is a valid one. Beating a dead horse is bad enough (and I have been/am often guilty of doing that) but doing it with propaganda-esque phrasing that says little of value doesn't add much to the conversation. We can step it up a notch and use this forum to post thoughtful coherent discussion or we can be dismissed as a bunch of drunken whiners.

Either Buju's trolling and deliberately trying to provoke a reaction , or he's inadvertently making an ass of himself while expressing a valid concern. Ignoring it doesn't help anyone in either scenario.

Maybe we should implement a "Digg" style posting system and see which posts end up where...