Nat. Post: No beer in Ontario corner stores any time soon

[Derek]

The VQA wines get a huge break... with something like only 15% LCBO markup, while our craft brewers have almost a 50% markup.

Does our government support wino's?

[SteelbackGuy]

I think that there already are a couple hundred corner stores in Ontario that sell wine and beer - "agency stores."
There's one in Keene (20 minutes from Peterborough) and one in Hampton (15 minutes from Oshawa).
I don't know first hand how they work, in terms of hours, but a semi-drunken source has told me that if the store is open, you can buy booze.

This is correct.


The agency store program was implemented to service rural areas, as well as areas with very small population. These stores act as both beer stores and LCBO locations, and the retailer makes a small profit off of the alcohol, but it is still sales for an LCBO, as the agency has to buy the alcohol from a LCBO store.

In some spots (binbrook is a good example), what started out as a location servicing only a small town, has now turned into a spot that could support a real LCBO store. But the LCBO won't take away the stores from the people they gave them to, so there is much internal conflict as to whether the program is good or not.

In most examples, the profits would be greater if these stores were just regular LCBO stores from the information that was released last year, in an internal document.

[The_Jester]

. . . In some spots (binbrook is a good example), what started out as a location servicing only a small town, has now turned into a spot that could support a real LCBO store. But the LCBO won't take away the stores from the people they gave them to, so there is much internal conflict as to whether the program is good or not.

In most examples, the profits would be greater if these stores were just regular LCBO stores from the information that was released last year, in an internal document.

I'm guessing that both Union and management aren't happy about this?

[SteelbackGuy]

. . . In some spots (binbrook is a good example), what started out as a location servicing only a small town, has now turned into a spot that could support a real LCBO store. But the LCBO won't take away the stores from the people they gave them to, so there is much internal conflict as to whether the program is good or not.

In most examples, the profits would be greater if these stores were just regular LCBO stores from the information that was released last year, in an internal document.

I'm guessing that both Union and management aren't happy about this?

The union is absolutely not happy with this. These are stores that could be providing more LCBO jobs.

And management isn't too happy either from what I know. The more stores, the more manager jobs, the more district manager jobs, etc.

Upper management is fine with it because it was mandated from the gov't and they are happy to do whatever they are told. Just so long as at the end of the year, they all get their nice bonuses and their pat on the back for contributing to LCBO's record profit of $6 BILLION dollars.

[Belgian]

As an inside source, and based on what I have seen in videos and LCBO training books, I can say that according to the LCBO, customer satisfaction is at an all time high, at over 81%. This is quite high, and it is only going up.

Veal calves born & raised in a dark dirty stall their whole life might be "relatively satisfied" about some things too - they have never seen the light of day. They don't have more 'normal' standards like breathing clean air and feeling the sunshine.

Neither do Ontarians have standards by which they may evaluate our socialist liquor retail system - it's all they've ever known (in at least 81% of cases I would surmise...) And allowing private stores would only result in a massive shift in consumer standards, away from the old paradigm.

That said, our "veal factory" is surely much better than most places in the world. And the existence of IPA has now been officially recognized. Life is good.

[velovampire]

As an inside source, and based on what I have seen in videos and LCBO training books, I can say that according to the LCBO, customer satisfaction is at an all time high, at over 81%. This is quite high, and it is only going up.

Veal calves born & raised in a dark dirty stall their whole life might be "relatively satisfied" about some things too - they have never seen the light of day. They don't have more 'normal' standards like breathing clean air and feeling the sunshine.

Neither do Ontarians have standards by which they may evaluate our socialist liquor retail system - it's all they've ever known (in at least 81% of cases I would surmise...) And allowing private stores would only result in a massive shift in consumer standards, away from the old paradigm.

That said, our "veal factory" is surely much better than most places in the world. And the existence of IPA has now been officially recognized. Life is good.

Plato's "Cave" is another good analogy here....the citizens saw the shadow of the IPA and it looked like Keith's which they drank happily. But one day, one of them wandered out of the cave and discovered that it was in fact a Southern Tier IPA, which he tasted, and it was GLORIOUS!!!

[boney]

As an inside source, and based on what I have seen in videos and LCBO training books, I can say that according to the LCBO, customer satisfaction is at an all time high, at over 81%. This is quite high, and it is only going up.

Veal calves born & raised in a dark dirty stall their whole life might be "relatively satisfied" about some things too - they have never seen the light of day. They don't have more 'normal' standards like breathing clean air and feeling the sunshine.

Neither do Ontarians have standards by which they may evaluate our socialist liquor retail system - it's all they've ever known (in at least 81% of cases I would surmise...) And allowing private stores would only result in a massive shift in consumer standards, away from the old paradigm.

That said, our "veal factory" is surely much better than most places in the world. And the existence of IPA has now been officially recognized. Life is good.

Ontarians really are caught between a rock and a hard place. Monopolies suck and usually breed the status quo. Luckily there are a few in the system who care about beer and are working for change. Alternatively, privatization would create a paradigm shift, but it wouldn't be instantaneous and there would be some lean years that would make LCBO summer releases seem like glory days. Plus, as Belgian states, our veal factory is pretty good.

What do I base this on? Well, I just visited Calgary (my home town) for the second time after moving here 5 or so years ago and I wanted to visit as many liquor stores as a I could in order to compare the LCBO vs privatized sales. What did I find? 2 stores with better slection than the best LCBO's (ie Cooper St.), 2-4 with comparable selctions (different selections though, of course) and dozens and dozens of really crap corner stores where the most exotic beer is Leffe. Furthermore, in the really good stores in Calgary, the extra selection was in terms of Belgian and German beers.....there was no Southern Tier or Dogfish Head. In fact, the only US microbrew I came across were Rogue, Anchor, Brooklyn, Lost Coast and Lagunitas. This selection is much better than I recall when I was last back last, 3 years ago.....but this is a dozen or so years after privatization and the only US micros I can get in Calgary are still Rogue, Langunitas et al. ????? UGGGGG!

For whatever reason (and I have my therories) a privatized Ontario probably wont result in Premier Gormet type shops across the province. Calgary's great economy=disposible income=boutique stores, including beer. But if it took 12 years to get there, so it'll take just as long, if not longer in Ontario. Yeah monopolies are bad in principle, but I still like the fact that I can drive through almost any city in Ontario and pick up some Southern Tier and a Christoffel right now.

I'll shut up now .

[detritus]

In fact, the only US microbrew I came across were Rogue, Anchor, Brooklyn, Lost Coast and Lagunitas. This selection is much better than I recall when I was last back last, 3 years ago.....but this is a dozen or so years after privatization and the only US micros I can get in Calgary are still Rogue, Langunitas et al. ????? UGGGGG!

Man... I wish Ontario was up to a level where we could complain about access to Langunitas...

-Josh

[boney]

In fact, the only US microbrew I came across were Rogue, Anchor, Brooklyn, Lost Coast and Lagunitas. This selection is much better than I recall when I was last back last, 3 years ago.....but this is a dozen or so years after privatization and the only US micros I can get in Calgary are still Rogue, Langunitas et al. ????? UGGGGG!

Man... I wish Ontario was up to a level where we could complain about access to Langunitas...

-Josh

Haha. That didn't come off quite right on my part. I'm not complaining about Lagunitas......almost evytrhing they do is excellent and the Brown Shugga is criminally underrated. I was just a little dissapointed that more US micros weren't available.

[toweringpine]

What was the selection of Canadian brew like?

I remember being able to buy so many brands out there that were not available in the east...

Obviously the entire line of Big Rock
Alley Kat
Yukon
Granville Island
Tin Whistle

Maybe not a larger selection than Ontario but certainly a different bunch of brewers.

[bujubanton]

Calgary may be slow to get good beer..but that shouldn't be used as a reason to avoid a true free market system in Ontario.
If we had private stores and Premier Gourmet wanted to partner with a Toronto business to open up a location here....I kind of think it would be profitable...very very profitable.

[boney]

What was the selection of Canadian brew like?

I remember being able to buy so many brands out there that were not available in the east...

Obviously the entire line of Big Rock
Alley Kat
Yukon
Granville Island
Tin Whistle

Maybe not a larger selection than Ontario but certainly a different bunch of brewers.

The selection of Western Canadian beer was actually quite good. The same ones you mentioned plus Cannery, Nelson, Wild Rose and a few others. I was a little surprised that the only Ontario/Quebec brews that I found were Unibroue, McAuslan, Mill St. and Creemore.

I do agree with bujubanton to a point. A Premier Gormet would be very successful in Toronto. However, I was using Calgary as an example of relatively slow growth of craft beer interest in Canada in general (it's faster than ever before, but how many 18-50 year olds in Ontario have ever drunk a Church Key for example, or even have interest in craft beers? Thus the "relative" tag). I may be totally worng here, but I don't know how successful a Preier Gormet would be in London, Newmarket, Thunnder Bay etc. A free market system might be great for the GTA but punishing for the rest of the province, at least for a few years. Rock and a hard place.

[Belgian]

privatization would create a paradigm shift, but it wouldn't be instantaneous and there would be some lean years that would make LCBO summer releases seem like glory days. Plus, as Belgian states, our veal factory is pretty good. ... .

I meant pretty good veal factory living in general - human rights, standards of living, health and public safety & personal opportunity are all exceptional here, despite the bizarrely controlling nature of our liquor retail.

And yeah, I meant the liquor consumer paradigm would "shift" in the sense that with say partial privatization, a few high-level private stores in a larger center would wreak some havoc on the LCBO area stores, which would not be able to adjust to that new kind of selective market (although plenty of people would still shop at the 'Bo for a long time.) The LCBO would suddenly have to become more adaptable or else they might wither away for the most part.. not a challenge they will EVER gladly take on.

... Yeah monopolies are bad in principle, but I still like the fact that I can drive through almost any city in Ontario and pick up some Southern Tier and a Christoffel right now..

The consistent predictability of LCBO retail is the one strong thing going for it, as it gives the consumer a lot of control to acess what may be available. You can request anything at any store.

There is at least THAT much accountability to the public, even if it means the LC have to severely limit overall selection to make everything available everywhere.

[detritus]

However, I was using Calgary as an example of relatively slow growth of craft beer interest in Canada in general (it's faster than ever before, but how many 18-50 year olds in Ontario have ever drunk a Church Key for example, or even have interest in craft beers? Thus the "relative" tag).

Church-key? Probably not that many, seeing as their distribution is pretty limited. But I'd bet a pretty big chunk of that demographic have had a Steam Whitsle, or a Wellington, or a Denisons, etc. ...

-Josh

[boney]

[quote="detritus"

Church-key? Probably not that many, seeing as their distribution is pretty limited. But I'd bet a pretty big chunk of that demographic have had a Steam Whitsle, or a Wellington, or a Denisons, etc. ...

-Josh[/quote]

Fair enough. Steam Whistle and Wellington, you are probably right. Denisons? Getting steadfast macro drinkers to try wheat beers is like leading a horse to water because it "looks really funny". As for Denisons distribution......oh baby, if I didn't have to drive into Toronto everytime I wanted a pint, I would be in heaven (nudge, nudge to the Winking Judge).