The Beer Store: Exposed as the crooks that they are!

[skaghevn]

I'm not aware of a beer store that would take back bottles I have bought in the States or elsewhere, and there would be no chance at my local - they even argue with me over bottles that have had to come through the LCBO on private order.

Everything I take back, incl. private order bottles, go through without a hassle.

[Bytowner]

No. "Absurd" is too strong. It is difficult for most kids to get served at the local Beer Store. That is a fact. At least around here. It would be easier for them to get served at the corner store, especially when their buddies are working. That is also a fact. (I'm using the ease with which they get smokes as my basis for this.) It is unreasonable to think that a local Mom & Pop operation with an unsupervised 18-year-old behind the counter is going to be as "tight" a ship as a busy, camera-filled Beer Store. Think about it...

I think that at this point in time it's probably really easy for people in small town Ontario to get beer from the Beer Store, much easier than for city folk. I think it would be the same if everything was opened up.

But we agree about everything I think. I agree that if things were opened up completely, I would very rarely buy a 24 of Bud from the Quickie. I'm interested in OCB stores primarily, although the biggest argument for opening up is for boutique stores that specialize in non-Ontario beer. You can't get that with anything other than a completely open market, since neither the Big Boys nor the OCB would benefit from more imports.

[Bytowner]

Regarding the social ills that would result from a private system... the example held up by most of these neo-prohibitionists is that Alberta alcoholism went up. Anyone with any knowledge of what's happened to the Albertan economy in the past decade knows that's such a nonsense relationship to be claiming.

I believe the National Post article that was also posted here pointed out that alcoholism is on par if not slightly lower in New York state than here and that Nova Scotia has the highest rate in Canada, despite their public system.

[xocoatl]

I think the idea of an OCB store similar to the wine stores in many of the Zehrs stores would be a great idea.

Not really a threat to the Beer Store either, as their core clientele of mobat drinkers would not change.

It would likely get people to start trying some of the great OCB products available, and make it appealing for more craft brewers to start up in Ontario.

[Duct Tape]

I worded my original comment a bit vaguely, so incase there is a misunderstanding by out of province I meant stuff not available for purchase in Ontario). I'm not aware of a beer store that would take back bottles I have bought in the States or elsewhere, and there would be no chance at my local - they even argue with me over bottles that have had to come through the LCBO on private order. As if I wake up in the morning and decide to defraud the beer store of 10 cents!

No misunderstanding. They have taken back bottles from me purchased in Quebec, British Columbia, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois and Florida, no questions asked.

[crawler]

I've never had a bottle return refused ever, even stuff that I bring in from outside Ontario.

[Mississauga Matt]

Taking back out of province bottles is half the fun.

[lister]

I've never had any issues taking back out of province or out of country bottles. I've had a couple of BS employees grab a bottle to look at it, I figure either they're not sure if it's an ISB, if it's a beer bottle at all, or are curious what the weird bottle of beer is.

The Beer Store definitely needs to have something done about it. Either allow the smaller craft brewers to buy in at reasonable prices and treat them fairly or allow them to setup OCB shops. I'd prefer the latter. I'd love to pick up some Church Key products from an around the corner OCB shop.

For the LCBO, if they're serious about promoting OCB and importing good beer then I don't see the need of allowing private competition though in this scenario I'd prefer they adopt my idea (in markets that warrant it) whereby LCBO's and Beer Store's that are right next to each other, have the LCBO drop the duplicated beer products between them and have just non-BS OCB and import beers available and then put out a serious effort to get in some of the best beers available. Summerhill is an excellent example of this which has an LCBO and BS within throwing distance of each other.

If this is as far as the LCBO is willing to go then I'd like to see the above where the OCB is allow to set up shops, non-OCB breweries do their own thing (maybe eliminate the idiotic rules for brewpubs / tied-houses) and allow private boutique shops whereby they are only allowed to sell beers that the LCBO and BS have no interest in. Maybe that could also be extended to wines and spirits the LCBO doesn't stock.

I don't see much point in allowing corner stores to sell beer as most, not all, but most will offer the lowest common denominators of beers (Molson, Labatts, Bud, Coors, etc.) I've been to Quebec enough times now to see the same old, same old at most corner stores (including the usual suspects of Quebec micros) with very few excellent stores popping up. I've been to as many as I could find in Montreal. I was hoping to see a large selection of European and US North Eastern beers available but alas I was disappointed.

I think Len's participation here has been extremely valuable for figuring out just what the hell goes on at the LCBO sometimes as well as figuring out how to work the system. If I was in his shoes I wouldn't be worried at all about a whole-sale privatization (even though I'm against it) as someone like him would be wanted by any boutique beer store though I suspect the need of uprooting may be required. For the large group of surly useless LCBO employees, I'd be scared because they'd be either out of work fast (start practicing your "Would you like fires with that Sir?" lines) or be employed at much lower salaries.

I don't have much sympathy for union members when they cry about job security when us non-union people have zero job security. (I was in a union once and hated every minute of it.)

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

I'm not a fan of the idea of OCB only stores. A system like that just puts us back at square one, since it seems to me that an OCB only store would have even less desire to see American micros in the province.

The only way to do it is to throw open the doors of privatization. A purely private system where boutique style stores could exist and operate outside of the rules and regulations of the LCBO. If a small boutique store wanted to bring in a kriek, the LCBO should have no place to deny them based on "cyanide" ( ) in the beer.

The private stores would have to be completely autonomous in respect to what products they wanted to carry.

And as much as I'd like to see the LCBO die a fiery death, it will never happen. The best we'll ever get is a two tiered system, in which the LCBO will continue to thrive, because your average slop swillin', KD eatin', pick up drivin' moron wouldn't be caught dead buying "queer beer" from a "boutique".

[lister]

If a small boutique store wanted to bring in a kriek, the LCBO should have no place to deny them based on "cyanide" ( ) in the beer.

I think it's been mentioned several times here that it's the Feds that screwed the pooch on the "cyanide" thing with the kriek.

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

If a small boutique store wanted to bring in a kriek, the LCBO should have no place to deny them based on "cyanide" ( ) in the beer.

I think it's been mentioned several times here that it's the Feds that screwed the pooch on the "cyanide" thing with the kriek.

Ah, my mistake then. My point still stands that the owners of these hypothetical stores should have complete control over what they bring in, with only a small outline of limitations.

[Bobsy]

Everything I take back, incl. private order bottles, go through without a hassle.

Dammit! I've thrown away a small fortune! Although, I'd probably have to go to a different beer store other than my local to get refunds on my bottles. Summerhill has given me grief refunding deposits on bottles of Unearthly from R&R. I presume the store guideline is to only refund bottles sold by the LCBO or Beer Store, but that most employees probably don't know every beer carried. My beer store guys know too much about beer...who woulda thought that!

[GregClow]

Follow-up story in today's Star regarding the impact the series has had:

Petition protests beer monopoly

[JerCraigs]

I have gotten a hard time before about non-Ontario bottles, but the last time the bottle she picked out was ST IPA, Which I of course pointed out was new at the LCBO and she stopped questioning the rest.

Considering the number of bottles that have legitimate deposits paid on them at the LCBO, consignment, or private orders, I'm not sure that they can really say much.

[MattB]

Did you notice that they want a "donation" anywhere from $2 - $100 to sign the petition ... nice try, but forget it.