Hello all. I just wanted to let all Bar Towellers know that in the wake of Denison's demise and following a long chat with Michael Hancock, I have posted a feature on World of Beer (www.worldofbeer.com) which discusses not only the reasons for its failure, but also the difficulties that are faced by brewpubs across Ontario. At the end is a list of email addresses for various members of the provincial government, and an exhortation to all to contact these people and let them know that we are unhappy with the current state of affairs. Only by letting our voices be heard can we change things for the better.
P.S. Since a change in government may well occur later this year, don't forget to contact the opposition leaders, too.
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We have a trivia question in order to register to prevent bots. If you have any issues with answering, contact us at cass@bartowel.com for help.
Introducing Light Mode! If you would like a Bar Towel social experience that isn't the traditional blue, you can now select Light Mode. Go to the User Control Panel and then Board Preferences, and select "Day Drinking" (Light Mode) from the My Board Style drop-down menu. You can always switch back to "Night Drinking" (Dark Mode). Enjoy!
Denison's Post-Mortem
Steve,
I'm a bit confused about one of your points.
You say that " Ontario prohibits brewpubs from retailing their beer in any way other than for consumption on premises, banning external sales in all forms"
It seems that the Granite has found a way since their beer is available in the beer store.
In the Great Canadian Beer Guide you explain the situation at the Amsterdam/Roterdam/Al Frisco group. They have also found a way to sell beer on and off premises.
I believe that Mill St. brewery has also come up with a good plan. While they aren't a brewpub there will be lots of fresh beer available on site in a variety of settings not unlike Denisons.
Companies that are sucessful find a way to make things work within the framework of the laws and economic climate that they operate in. Denisons failed to pay their rent and they failed to produce any revenue for their investors over the entire life of the business. It's all well and good to blame the situation on the goverment and the landlord but that's not the whole story.
They had a great idea and a great product but it takes a lot more than that.
Bailey
I'm a bit confused about one of your points.
You say that " Ontario prohibits brewpubs from retailing their beer in any way other than for consumption on premises, banning external sales in all forms"
It seems that the Granite has found a way since their beer is available in the beer store.
In the Great Canadian Beer Guide you explain the situation at the Amsterdam/Roterdam/Al Frisco group. They have also found a way to sell beer on and off premises.
I believe that Mill St. brewery has also come up with a good plan. While they aren't a brewpub there will be lots of fresh beer available on site in a variety of settings not unlike Denisons.
Companies that are sucessful find a way to make things work within the framework of the laws and economic climate that they operate in. Denisons failed to pay their rent and they failed to produce any revenue for their investors over the entire life of the business. It's all well and good to blame the situation on the goverment and the landlord but that's not the whole story.
They had a great idea and a great product but it takes a lot more than that.
Bailey
I found some of the article confusing as well. It suggested that there are no other brewpubs in Toronto besides Denison's and Granite - but what about Amsterdam and C'est What?
I suppose C'est What straddles a line due to the fact that their own beers are all contract brewed off-site, but the Amsterdam brews all their beer on-site and sells it in their own pub. Does that not make them a brewpub?
And they also operate an on-site shop for bottled product and sell their product via the LCBO & Beer Store. Do they fall into some special classification that allows them to do this while not allowing Denison's & Granite to do so?
And Bailey - regarding the bottled version of Granite's Peculiar, it is not brewed and bottled at the pub location. They have contracted KLB (I believe?) to brew and bottle it for them. The Kingston Brewing Company used to have a similar deal with Hart in Ottawa to brew & bottle their Dragon's Breath Ale.
So basically - what makes the Amsterdam (and I guess Mill St., since I believe they are planning on having a pub in the same location as the brewery) different from the Granite and other brewpubs that aren't allowed to sell their product in bottles or off-site?
Greg
I suppose C'est What straddles a line due to the fact that their own beers are all contract brewed off-site, but the Amsterdam brews all their beer on-site and sells it in their own pub. Does that not make them a brewpub?
And they also operate an on-site shop for bottled product and sell their product via the LCBO & Beer Store. Do they fall into some special classification that allows them to do this while not allowing Denison's & Granite to do so?
And Bailey - regarding the bottled version of Granite's Peculiar, it is not brewed and bottled at the pub location. They have contracted KLB (I believe?) to brew and bottle it for them. The Kingston Brewing Company used to have a similar deal with Hart in Ottawa to brew & bottle their Dragon's Breath Ale.
So basically - what makes the Amsterdam (and I guess Mill St., since I believe they are planning on having a pub in the same location as the brewery) different from the Granite and other brewpubs that aren't allowed to sell their product in bottles or off-site?
Greg
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Steve Beaumont
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:00 pm
- Contact:
Bailey and Greg, your main have to do with the way the law in Ontario views brewpubs. First, Greg, you're quite right about KLB brewing Peculiar for the Granite, just as Hart once did for both the Granite and the KBC. While this obviously gets the beer out into the marketplace, it does nothing to address unused capacity in a brewpub's brewery.
On the Amsterdam front, it's merely of matter of it not being a brewpub. The Amsterdam on King Street is a production brewery, plain and simple. As the law states must be the case, the attached bar is under separate ownership and is not legally associated with the brewery. For this same reason, the folks at Steamwhistle have not opened a bar or restaurant in the extra space they have at their disposal, but have instead been trying to interest restaurateurs in subleasing it. (Or at least they were; they may have since decided to keep it as a hospitality and event space.)
If Denison's had constructed a separate entrance to the brewery and begun kegging their beer rather than running it directly from the bright tanks to the taps, and divided ownership so that the restaurants and the brewery were under different names, then they could have sold their beer off-premises. Of course, they would have had a devil of a time fitting a bottling line in there.
The bottom line is that many if not most other jurisdictions in North America allow brewpubs to sell their beer for consumption off-site, either in bottles or kegs or growlers. Ontario does not.
On the Amsterdam front, it's merely of matter of it not being a brewpub. The Amsterdam on King Street is a production brewery, plain and simple. As the law states must be the case, the attached bar is under separate ownership and is not legally associated with the brewery. For this same reason, the folks at Steamwhistle have not opened a bar or restaurant in the extra space they have at their disposal, but have instead been trying to interest restaurateurs in subleasing it. (Or at least they were; they may have since decided to keep it as a hospitality and event space.)
If Denison's had constructed a separate entrance to the brewery and begun kegging their beer rather than running it directly from the bright tanks to the taps, and divided ownership so that the restaurants and the brewery were under different names, then they could have sold their beer off-premises. Of course, they would have had a devil of a time fitting a bottling line in there.
The bottom line is that many if not most other jurisdictions in North America allow brewpubs to sell their beer for consumption off-site, either in bottles or kegs or growlers. Ontario does not.
Steve,
If you want to approach a government and have them take action on something you need a little better pitch than "they do it other places". If the government allows brew pubs to sell off site then the rest of the bar ownwers in this province will squeal like stuck pigs. The government knows if they open this barn door - all of the horses are leaving and not just the little brew pub one. I don't see any problem with these ideas but it is a large change in our system. There are not now and have never been enough brew pubs to make any impact of any kind. You may say that the reason for this is the regulations but I don't think that they make economic sense. Denisons was done in by the real estate market in downtown Toronto and Growler sales would not have saved them. You admit that there was no room for a bottling line so any way that you look at it, this thing just didn't work. BTW I don't look at this as a failure and I think they had a pretty decent run in a difficult and expensive loction. A business does not have to last forever to be a success.
The sensible way to go is to open a small brewery and this allows you to sell in a variety of places. You can then open a restaurant or bar nearby or in the same building and work that part of the equation. It's simply a matter of how you structure the companies to conform with various laws. One partner can own a brewery, one can own a restaurant and another can own the real estate. Do you think that I care about the business structure of the Amsterdam when I go in for a pint or to pick up a six pack of framboise. I don't care what it's called - a brewpub, a brewery or a beer store. I'm drinking beer in the same building that it's brewed in and I can pick up as much as I want to take home. Excuse me but I don't see the problem. It's legal and it's happening right here in our town. The Amsterdam did not start out in this format but it did evolve and that's what a business has to do to survive.
Bailey
If you want to approach a government and have them take action on something you need a little better pitch than "they do it other places". If the government allows brew pubs to sell off site then the rest of the bar ownwers in this province will squeal like stuck pigs. The government knows if they open this barn door - all of the horses are leaving and not just the little brew pub one. I don't see any problem with these ideas but it is a large change in our system. There are not now and have never been enough brew pubs to make any impact of any kind. You may say that the reason for this is the regulations but I don't think that they make economic sense. Denisons was done in by the real estate market in downtown Toronto and Growler sales would not have saved them. You admit that there was no room for a bottling line so any way that you look at it, this thing just didn't work. BTW I don't look at this as a failure and I think they had a pretty decent run in a difficult and expensive loction. A business does not have to last forever to be a success.
The sensible way to go is to open a small brewery and this allows you to sell in a variety of places. You can then open a restaurant or bar nearby or in the same building and work that part of the equation. It's simply a matter of how you structure the companies to conform with various laws. One partner can own a brewery, one can own a restaurant and another can own the real estate. Do you think that I care about the business structure of the Amsterdam when I go in for a pint or to pick up a six pack of framboise. I don't care what it's called - a brewpub, a brewery or a beer store. I'm drinking beer in the same building that it's brewed in and I can pick up as much as I want to take home. Excuse me but I don't see the problem. It's legal and it's happening right here in our town. The Amsterdam did not start out in this format but it did evolve and that's what a business has to do to survive.
Bailey
Thanks for the response, Steve. That's an interesting loophole, and it seems like a pretty silly bit of hassle to have to go through in order to have a set-up like the Amsterdam.
And regarding the Steam Whistle situation, I would find it hard to imagine them being able to get interest from someone to open a restaurant in that location. I went to a friend's art show at the brewery once, and it was a pain to get down there. I suppose they might get some tourist traffic from the CN Tower and Skydome, but they sure wouldn't be able to depend on the walk-by traffic that is the bread-and-butter of most eateries.
Greg
And regarding the Steam Whistle situation, I would find it hard to imagine them being able to get interest from someone to open a restaurant in that location. I went to a friend's art show at the brewery once, and it was a pain to get down there. I suppose they might get some tourist traffic from the CN Tower and Skydome, but they sure wouldn't be able to depend on the walk-by traffic that is the bread-and-butter of most eateries.
Greg
Regarding brew-pubs and breweries, until recently there was a law on the books prohibiting any "shipping brewery" from owning a licensed establishment. This "tied-house" law was designed to prevent the large brewers from buying up bars and having exclusive rights to only their products. This law was recently altered to allow any brewer ONE tied house. Under AGCO guidelines, a brewpub is not a brewery. A brewpub needs only to get another endorsement on their liquor licence in order to brew. A full scale brewery has a more complicated schedule of terms to follow in order to be given its licence to brew.
Opening a small, or even medium-sized brewery is certainly no licence to print money. The attrition rate is staggering. The domestic draught market is cut-throat enterprise, where the little guys have to duke it out with each other and with the Big Guys, who use every tactic their pocketbooks allow. Micros who are successful are generally niche marketers and their success is dependant upon their ability to operate in this narrow margin.
P.S Welcome back Stephen! Well have to get together for a pint of Corporal Punishment when it comes out!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PRMason on 2003-02-07 21:11 ]</font>
Opening a small, or even medium-sized brewery is certainly no licence to print money. The attrition rate is staggering. The domestic draught market is cut-throat enterprise, where the little guys have to duke it out with each other and with the Big Guys, who use every tactic their pocketbooks allow. Micros who are successful are generally niche marketers and their success is dependant upon their ability to operate in this narrow margin.
P.S Welcome back Stephen! Well have to get together for a pint of Corporal Punishment when it comes out!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PRMason on 2003-02-07 21:11 ]</font>
Perry - I checked your site for info on this "Corporal Punishment" you speak of, and it sounds very interesting. Any plans for a launch of some sort at one of the fine establishments in Toronto that offer your wares?
And by the way, I love the border collie design for Border Bitter tap. Sheryl and I are dog folks as well, and one of our two mutts is part border collie, along with several other breeds that we're not sure of (one of them possibly moose, as he weighs about 120 pounds).
Greg
And by the way, I love the border collie design for Border Bitter tap. Sheryl and I are dog folks as well, and one of our two mutts is part border collie, along with several other breeds that we're not sure of (one of them possibly moose, as he weighs about 120 pounds).
Greg
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joey_capps
- Bar Fly
- Posts: 592
- Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:00 pm
- Location: Waterdown
I didn't find the article confusing, and I don't think Steven suggests that government regulation was the only factor in Denison's demise. Rather, it seems to be a call to seize this opportunity and, perhaps, make something positive come of this failure.
Stephen's argument wasn't simply that "they do it elsewhere" but that there are economic/touristic advantages to having a thriving beer/brewpub culture in a city. As well, he alludes to the favoritism shown the wine industry in Ontario--not to begrude the wine industry anything.
As for growlers, they might have been enough to make a difference. They might not have. We'll never know, will we. That's precisely how Molbattman's wants it. Also, I don't see the point about other establishments crying foul if only beer that is brewed by the pub could be sold this way. Nevertheless, maybe it's a Pandora's box that should be opened.
We should draft a sample letter that we can all forward to the politicians Stephen listed and, I would suggest, your local MPP. I'll work on it, but I'm not the best at these things and I think there are more qualified and informed writers (Josh
).
I also think that we should be taking some other steps. First, we need to get our family and friends to forward a letter as well. If we get a sample, this will be easily. Also, Cass, what about a page with all the information, a sample letter, address etc. It would give the lurkers a chance to get their voices heard as well.
Joe
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jcappadocia on 2003-02-09 19:45 ]</font>
Stephen's argument wasn't simply that "they do it elsewhere" but that there are economic/touristic advantages to having a thriving beer/brewpub culture in a city. As well, he alludes to the favoritism shown the wine industry in Ontario--not to begrude the wine industry anything.
As for growlers, they might have been enough to make a difference. They might not have. We'll never know, will we. That's precisely how Molbattman's wants it. Also, I don't see the point about other establishments crying foul if only beer that is brewed by the pub could be sold this way. Nevertheless, maybe it's a Pandora's box that should be opened.
We should draft a sample letter that we can all forward to the politicians Stephen listed and, I would suggest, your local MPP. I'll work on it, but I'm not the best at these things and I think there are more qualified and informed writers (Josh
).I also think that we should be taking some other steps. First, we need to get our family and friends to forward a letter as well. If we get a sample, this will be easily. Also, Cass, what about a page with all the information, a sample letter, address etc. It would give the lurkers a chance to get their voices heard as well.
Joe
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jcappadocia on 2003-02-09 19:45 ]</font>
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Steve Beaumont
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:00 pm
- Contact:
Thanks for the defence, Joe. You pretty much nailed the points I was trying to make in my feature, and I wish you good fortune in your lobbying suggestions. It would be great to see Bar Towellers rally behind these ideas..
Re: Bailey's comments, I would add that the economic sense of brewpubs has been established in markets as diverse as B.C., Colorado and California, where brewpub start-ups have outnumbered brewery start-ups for years. Yes, establishing the brewery-restaurant-real estate mix is one way of getting around the law in Ontario, but I believe that law is fundamentally flawed and thus should change. After all, if working within the constraints of the laws of the day was the way the Amsterdam, Kingston Brewing Company and Atlas Hotel behaved almost two decades ago, we wouldn't have any brewpubs at all!
The idea of retail sales on premises is only one side of the legislative equation. There's also draught sales to consider, which arguably would have a more concrete impact on revenue if allowed. Besides, who among us wouldn't like to be able to buy a pint of Granite Best Bitter or Denison Weizen at their local?
Perry, this new beer of yours sounds interesting. Do let me know when it comes out.
Re: Bailey's comments, I would add that the economic sense of brewpubs has been established in markets as diverse as B.C., Colorado and California, where brewpub start-ups have outnumbered brewery start-ups for years. Yes, establishing the brewery-restaurant-real estate mix is one way of getting around the law in Ontario, but I believe that law is fundamentally flawed and thus should change. After all, if working within the constraints of the laws of the day was the way the Amsterdam, Kingston Brewing Company and Atlas Hotel behaved almost two decades ago, we wouldn't have any brewpubs at all!
The idea of retail sales on premises is only one side of the legislative equation. There's also draught sales to consider, which arguably would have a more concrete impact on revenue if allowed. Besides, who among us wouldn't like to be able to buy a pint of Granite Best Bitter or Denison Weizen at their local?
Perry, this new beer of yours sounds interesting. Do let me know when it comes out.
Joe,
Before you and the rest of the group, friends and relatives included, heed Steve's call to storm the Parliament buildings (in an e-mail kind of way), it might be nice to consider a few facts.
According to Mr Beaumont's book there are less than 20 brewpubs in all of Ontario. He has very little regard for many of them and they don't score that well in his rating system. For some reason he even felt the need to slam the product at Al Frisco's in his article. Books like this are of course out of date very quickly because things change. ( This is a good thing for Steve because he can write a new edition and when he does, I shall buy it.)
Facts that we need to know,
How many brewpub licences have been issued since the first legislation? (Amsterdam opened in 1986.)
How many brewpubs do we have now and how are they doing?
How many have failed and why have they failed?
Why do people/companies that open restaurants/bars not want to brew their own beer?
Why do people that start companies that brew beer not want to open brewpubs?
I didn't miss Steve's point about economic/tourist advantages but since he did not offer up one fact or source to support his opinion I didn't feel the need to challenge him. Perhaps he would be kind enough to tell us where we can look for this information on websites and in reports so that we may be informed before we take on the entire sector of the provincial cabinet that has anything to do with beer. ( and of course the leader of each party and the Premier of the province.) If this is simply his opinion then it would be good to know that. If that's the case his credentials as an expert on Tourism/Economics would also be helpful when we take on the Government.
If anyone wants to contact the government I would suggest that they do a few things. Be prepared with some facts on the situation. Present an argument based on fact and not just opinion. Just sending a form letter e-mail is the easiest and also the worst method. It will be thrown on the invisible electronic pile with the rest of them. (Some politicians pay attention to e-mail - some don't.) Real letters are better, as are faxes. They result in a visible pile of hard copy in the office. It would be much better to have people compose letters in their own way rather than just sending in form letters but by all means post the facts on Bar Towel.
Whatever you do follow up with a phone call and make sure that they have received whatever you have sent and keep after them until you get an answer. If you don't like the answer reload with more facts and start over.
Since there is clearly an election on the horizon, this is the worst possible time to contact the folks that Steve listed. It is however an excellent time to contact the candidates. They will be making every effort to get in your face so be ready for them with a bit more than Stephen Beaumont's opinion when they do.
Bailey
Before you and the rest of the group, friends and relatives included, heed Steve's call to storm the Parliament buildings (in an e-mail kind of way), it might be nice to consider a few facts.
According to Mr Beaumont's book there are less than 20 brewpubs in all of Ontario. He has very little regard for many of them and they don't score that well in his rating system. For some reason he even felt the need to slam the product at Al Frisco's in his article. Books like this are of course out of date very quickly because things change. ( This is a good thing for Steve because he can write a new edition and when he does, I shall buy it.)
Facts that we need to know,
How many brewpub licences have been issued since the first legislation? (Amsterdam opened in 1986.)
How many brewpubs do we have now and how are they doing?
How many have failed and why have they failed?
Why do people/companies that open restaurants/bars not want to brew their own beer?
Why do people that start companies that brew beer not want to open brewpubs?
I didn't miss Steve's point about economic/tourist advantages but since he did not offer up one fact or source to support his opinion I didn't feel the need to challenge him. Perhaps he would be kind enough to tell us where we can look for this information on websites and in reports so that we may be informed before we take on the entire sector of the provincial cabinet that has anything to do with beer. ( and of course the leader of each party and the Premier of the province.) If this is simply his opinion then it would be good to know that. If that's the case his credentials as an expert on Tourism/Economics would also be helpful when we take on the Government.
If anyone wants to contact the government I would suggest that they do a few things. Be prepared with some facts on the situation. Present an argument based on fact and not just opinion. Just sending a form letter e-mail is the easiest and also the worst method. It will be thrown on the invisible electronic pile with the rest of them. (Some politicians pay attention to e-mail - some don't.) Real letters are better, as are faxes. They result in a visible pile of hard copy in the office. It would be much better to have people compose letters in their own way rather than just sending in form letters but by all means post the facts on Bar Towel.
Whatever you do follow up with a phone call and make sure that they have received whatever you have sent and keep after them until you get an answer. If you don't like the answer reload with more facts and start over.
Since there is clearly an election on the horizon, this is the worst possible time to contact the folks that Steve listed. It is however an excellent time to contact the candidates. They will be making every effort to get in your face so be ready for them with a bit more than Stephen Beaumont's opinion when they do.
Bailey
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Asim Ozses
- Posts: 26
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- Location: Castro's Lounge
As Mason said "this tied-house law designed to prevent the large brewers from buying up bars" is a good thing, and it is a luxury other types of start-ups don't have. It is designed with the two bullies Molson's and Labatt's in mind, forcing their shitty beers on the masses more easily. Therefore lifting this law would be doing disservice to brewpubs and pubs alike.
I was not aware that 1 tied house was allowed. That should be enough incentive for brewpub owner-wannabes like myself go for it. Just have to set up corporate structure differently.
I was not aware that 1 tied house was allowed. That should be enough incentive for brewpub owner-wannabes like myself go for it. Just have to set up corporate structure differently.
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lucysaunders
- Posts: 3
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In reply to the following: "didn't miss Steve's point about economic/tourist advantages but since he did not offer up one fact or source to support his opinion I didn't feel the need to challenge him. Perhaps he would be kind enough to tell us where we can look for this information on websites and in reports so that we may be informed before we take on the entire sector of the provincial cabinet that has anything to do with beer. ( and of course the leader of each party and the Premier of the province.) If this is simply his opinion then it would be good to know that. If that's the case his credentials as an expert on Tourism/Economics would also be helpful when we take on the Government."
I am only 1/8 Canadian, so you will probably dismiss this post - but there is a link between economic vitality of a downtown, dollars spent by tourists, and variety in food/drink establishments to attract those tourists. In Wisconsin and Illinois (both part of the Great Lakes ecosystem that naturally attracts brewers...) there are several cities that have formally created pub crawls for tourists to increase visitation to brewpubs. One city, Schaumberg, even went so far as to advertise for a brewpub to open in their fair city so as to draw tourists and visitors.
As Bar Towel fans all seem to recognize the value of pub crawls as a means of learning about a city's beer selection, and as a fun way to travel around new neighborhoods, it seems logical to lobby for fair business regulations for brewpubs.
I am only 1/8 Canadian, so you will probably dismiss this post - but there is a link between economic vitality of a downtown, dollars spent by tourists, and variety in food/drink establishments to attract those tourists. In Wisconsin and Illinois (both part of the Great Lakes ecosystem that naturally attracts brewers...) there are several cities that have formally created pub crawls for tourists to increase visitation to brewpubs. One city, Schaumberg, even went so far as to advertise for a brewpub to open in their fair city so as to draw tourists and visitors.
As Bar Towel fans all seem to recognize the value of pub crawls as a means of learning about a city's beer selection, and as a fun way to travel around new neighborhoods, it seems logical to lobby for fair business regulations for brewpubs.
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Uncle Bobby
- Posts: 383
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- Contact:
...Ummm, no...Notes, observations and input from our American cousins are always welcome. Particularly as the experience of people in the Great Lake states is similar to our own in many regards. And there are always great beers in U.S. towns. But we would appreciate it if you could do something about your 16oz. pint glasses.I am only 1/8 Canadian, so you will probably dismiss this post
And the name of Schaumberg translates from German as "Foam-city". Very apt, it seems.One city, Schaumberg, even went so far as to advertise for a brewpub to open in their fair city so as to draw tourists and visitors.
Thanks.