Is that an official pint?

[gongu]

Hi all: Don't know if this has been posted separately before but the
discussion of how some pints seem under volume led me to some
checking.
The Canadian pint is 20 oz. or 568.26 ml.
There is no maximum size "pint" pour for Ontario as in B.C. where it's
500ml. for the so called pint.
According to the AGCO in Ontario the only volume regulations refer to a
standard beer glass as 12 oz or 341ml.
A quick check with my own glassware indicates that 20 oz. is right to
the brim of a nonick pint class.
The more bar standard same diameter top with narrower bottom only
holds 500 ml. as do those glass mugs that some bars use.
Hope this is helpful.

[ritzkiss]

Interesting article out of BC on the variance in pints

http://www.vancouversun.com/pint+other+ ... story.html

Be interesting to see someone do the same kind of survey here in Toronto.

[Belgian]

What if we lobby the LLBO for two standard Ontario bar glass sizes, marked by volume? Something bar owners CAN'T play games with?

Beer has gotten expensive enough for a single drink that we rightly should know exactly how many milliliters we're getting (say, exactly 330ml or 500ml). Even topping a glass with foam can steal back 20% of the beer you paid you hard-earned $$ for (and paid taxes for, and are tipping for... you get what I mean.) That can cost you sometimes nearly a few dollars. Standardize the glasses!

Hell it works for Europe. We're metric here too!

[grub]

What if we lobby the LLBO for two standard Ontario bar glass sizes, marked by volume? Something bar owners CAN'T play games with?

aside from the boredom of having exactly two glass types, it still won't work.

there's a local establishment that sells beer in two sizes. i believe the menu lists them as small and large pints, and i think it also quotes them as 16+20oz respectively. however, on two different occasions when i visited this place, ordering a "large pint" of leffe i got it served in a brewery glass clearly marked with a 330ml line - and the liquid barely above this.

the first time we brought this to the servers attention and they were incredibly apologetic, insisting that there are two different sized glasses and we were incorrectly given the smaller one. they adjusted the bill so we only paid for the smaller one, which i still argued was incorrect as we got 330ml pours, smaller than the small size. they gave us a couple of vouchers for free drinks on our next visit.

the second time i didn't go there voluntarily, already been miffed by the last visit, but i figured i'd at least use my free drink ticket. unfortunately, they were not honoured as the person who issued them no longer worked there and they insisted they had no way to know if they were issued before or after their termination... alright, back off to a bad start. again, i ordered a large leffe. again i was given a clearly marked 330ml glass that was nowhere near the advertised size. however, this time when i inquired about the mismatch in size i was told i'd been given the larger glass and that the brewery has another that's even smaller. they insisted that this is their policy and that this is the large portion and that the brewery tells them to do this. i continued to push the issue to no avail. it was the first and last beer i bought that night, and i refuse to go back...

[Bobbyok]

What if we lobby the LLBO for two standard Ontario bar glass sizes, marked by volume? Something bar owners CAN'T play games with?

Beer has gotten expensive enough for a single drink that we rightly should know exactly how many milliliters we're getting (say, exactly 330ml or 500ml). Even topping a glass with foam can steal back 20% of the beer you paid you hard-earned $$ for (and paid taxes for, and are tipping for... you get what I mean.) That can cost you sometimes nearly a few dollars. Standardize the glasses!

Hell it works for Europe. We're metric here too!

Do you seriously want the AGCO or some other organization running into your favourite pubs doing random checks to make sure their glasses are the right size on your dime as the taxpayer funding the whole thing?

Hold them to account if they state they're selling a 16 oz glass and you're only getting 12. But a standardized glass size? Really? Would you really want places like Volo, Beer Bistro, Smokeless getting rid of all their specialty glassware and serving you an Orval in a lager glass? Because that's the end result you're looking at with a standardized glass size.

[SteelbackGuy]

The best thing to do is approach the staff/manager/owner and voice your concerns.
If a bar is selling a "pint" here in Ontario, well I expect that is not a 20 oz, but probably 16 oz. And I am ok with that, because it is what the norm is here, in a lot of cases.
if a place has a large and small option, that is when I start asking questions.

[Kel Varnsen]

What if we lobby the LLBO for two standard Ontario bar glass sizes, marked by volume? Something bar owners CAN'T play games with?

Beer has gotten expensive enough for a single drink that we rightly should know exactly how many milliliters we're getting (say, exactly 330ml or 500ml). Even topping a glass with foam can steal back 20% of the beer you paid you hard-earned $$ for (and paid taxes for, and are tipping for... you get what I mean.) That can cost you sometimes nearly a few dollars. Standardize the glasses!

Hell it works for Europe. We're metric here too!

Do you seriously want the AGCO or some other organization running into your favourite pubs doing random checks to make sure their glasses are the right size on your dime as the taxpayer funding the whole thing?

Hold them to account if they state they're selling a 16 oz glass and you're only getting 12. But a standardized glass size? Really? Would you really want places like Volo, Beer Bistro, Smokeless getting rid of all their specialty glassware and serving you an Orval in a lager glass? Because that's the end result you're looking at with a standardized glass size.

I think it could work. I was in England last summer and it worked great there. No need for government inspectors. In the UK any glass that serves beer had a line on it indicating one pint (smaller glasses had a line indicating a half pint) and some sort of certification mark (it showed up on both branded glasses and standard glasses). Could easily make it the same here rules here, and put the responsibility on the bar owners and the glass suppliers. And I have to say it was awesome to know exactly how much beer you were getting. You don't need to have 1 standard glass, just make sure that any bar glass (no matter the shape) has a line indicating the volume on it.

[Bobbyok]

I think it could work. I was in England last summer and it worked great there. No need for government inspectors. In the UK any glass that serves beer had a line on it indicating one pint (smaller glasses had a line indicating a half pint) and some sort of certification mark (it showed up on both branded glasses and standard glasses). Could easily make it the same here rules here, and put the responsibility on the bar owners and the glass suppliers. And I have to say it was awesome to know exactly how much beer you were getting. You don't need to have 1 standard glass, just make sure that any bar glass (no matter the shape) has a line indicating the volume on it.

Sure, it could work. But if pub owners are so shady, as a policy like standardized glassware or forcing you to use glasses with the line marking the volume assumes they are, then you'll just end up with lines on the glass that aren't the right measure. Just because the line on the glass says it's a pint doesn't mean it's actually a pint.

And out of curiosity, is it an actual law or regulation in England, or simply something the market has come to expect so everyone does it?

[Kel Varnsen]

I think it could work. I was in England last summer and it worked great there. No need for government inspectors. In the UK any glass that serves beer had a line on it indicating one pint (smaller glasses had a line indicating a half pint) and some sort of certification mark (it showed up on both branded glasses and standard glasses). Could easily make it the same here rules here, and put the responsibility on the bar owners and the glass suppliers. And I have to say it was awesome to know exactly how much beer you were getting. You don't need to have 1 standard glass, just make sure that any bar glass (no matter the shape) has a line indicating the volume on it.

Sure, it could work. But if pub owners are so shady, as a policy like standardized glassware or forcing you to use glasses with the line marking the volume assumes they are, then you'll just end up with lines on the glass that aren't the right measure. Just because the line on the glass says it's a pint doesn't mean it's actually a pint.

And out of curiosity, is it an actual law or regulation in England, or simply something the market has come to expect so everyone does it?

It appears to be a law in the UK. All the glasses I saw had the line etched into them with a certification mark. I am not sure I could see a pub owner would go to work etching glasses himself, or finding a crooked glassware maker to do it. If he was that crooked, there are so many more easy, and cheaper ways to rip off drunk people (like watering down drinks).

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi- ... 7-1011.txt

[Steve Beaumont]

In the UK, as I understand it, there are standards for pour sizes, not glasses - one-third, one-half and full pints, or multiples of one-half pint, ie: 30 oz., or 1.5 pints. This is legislation that was fiercely defended by punters and publicans during the metrification of the land.

In Ontario, on the other hand, we have a mish-mash of Imperial, US and metric sizes, eg. 20 oz. pint, 16 oz. pint, half-litre. Standardization would thus be a complete nightmare.

But say we do go to standard measures. If we were to go Imperial, that would mean the loss of all the European specialty glassware, so goodbye to weissbier glasses, bollekes and the pink elephants of the Delirium goblet. If we go metric, on the other hand, all of our existing British- and Irish-style pubs will need to go to half- and quarter-litres, thus also rendering a lot of craft brewery glassware obsolete. And unless special allowances are made and a specific glass approved, say goodbye as well to taster sizes.

Finally, the cost to licensees of trying any option would be prohibitive, even fatal, especially when many restos and bars are struggling as it is.

[Kel Varnsen]

In the UK, as I understand it, there are standards for pour sizes, not glasses - one-third, one-half and full pints, or multiples of one-half pint, ie: 30 oz., or 1.5 pints. This is legislation that was fiercely defended by punters and publicans during the metrification of the land.

I believe it is both size and glass standards. This paragraph was taken from the link posted above.

Beer, lager and cider (except when mixed with another drink) can only be sold from draught in these quantities:

1/3 pint.
1/2 pint.
Multiples of 1/2 pint.
To ensure that the quantity given is accurate, beer, lager and cider must either be dispensed into a glass stamped with a crown mark or dispensed by a stamped meter.

Plus why would you have to pick standard sizes. Tell pubs they can sell beer in any size but that the size has to be clearly labelled on the glass in a commonly used unit. Plus really how many bars sell beer in specialty glases. There are maybe a few in Ottawa.

All I know is that it was awesome in London knowing exactly how much I was getting. There are a few bars in Ottawa that serve beer in nonic style glasses, yet they are obviously smaller than a standard glass since I can wrap my fingers all the way around them. Yet they still charge you the same prices as pretty much every other bar.

[Steve Beaumont]

The glasses in the UK do have to be verified in size, but they do not have to be either standard or lined. In fact, most are not lined, hence CAMRA's long-running Honest Pint campaign.

I'm all in favour of bars and restaurants saying the amounts they sell and selling the amounts they say, but the argument put forth by Belgian above wasn't that, it was for "two standard Ontario bar glass sizes." That's the issue I was addressing.

As far as specialties go, well, they are small but growing rapaciously. One importer who carries a number of specialty import draughts, every one of which has its own glass, told me he experienced portfolio-wide growth of 44% last year!

[Belgian]

*Shakes head*

Well of COURSE any imported 'specialty' sold n its own branded glassware would be CLEARLY STATED as a non-standard size. Why? Those branded (often also lined) glasses are ALREADY self-regulating & require no safeguard against deception. That doesn't need to enter the discussion of what constitutes (say) a usual Full, Half or whatever Ontario Standard Serving that the consumer can feel confident is the same everywhere.

Those Ontario servings could be perhaps 250ml 330ml and 500 ml - the basic sizes you could relly on to be the same everywhere for almost all draught product sales - much as in England you have the Third, Half and Full pint, and it is the same everywhere for THOSE sizes. Does that really mean they can't sell Orval in Orval glasses in England? HUH??

One does not exclude the other, I do not think.

The point is, if you were to order a product in a standard Ontario size, fully expecting that standard size, there can be no bar owners playing 'shell games' with glass sizes with 'anonymous' glassware on MOST of what they sell - those Standrads sizes and Branded Glassware sizes would each be absolute measures.

And would bar owners REALLY cheat with improperly lined glsasware, at risk of their license? I think the LLBO would have them by the sack.

And I'm pretty sure Ontario-brew branded glassware in standard sizes would turn up pretty quick to assist bar owners, thus enforcing the standard.

I hope that's clearer, but please do carry on!

[Steve Beaumont]

Those Ontario servings could be perhaps 250ml 330ml and 500 ml - the basic sizes you could relly on to be the same everywhere for almost all draught product sales - much as in England you have the Third, Half and Full pint, and it is the same everywhere for THOSE sizes. Does that really mean they can't sell Orval in Orval glasses in England? HUH??

Gee, I don't know, Belgian, since I have yet to come across draught Orval in England.

Seriously, you want your provincial government to regulate glassware? And in metric, when the vast majority of places use either US or Imperial ounces? The mind boggles...

[SteelbackGuy]

I don't think that legislating pint sizes is something our government should be doing.
Establishments are going to sell different sizes. It is up to us, the consumer, to ensure that we are getting value for our dollar. We need to hold establishments accountable.
If a place is advertising a pint of "brand x" then at that point, we need to make sure it is an actual pint, and not some 350 ml glass.
However, if we go to a bar and ask for a pint of "brand x", well we should just assume that it will be a larger size.