Beer Branding Question

[kinguy]

First - Black Oak. Ask me this question a few years ago, and it would have been Brick because as the first real micro, they were the standard setter for a number of years (Brick Bock - yum)

Canada - Unibroue

[Bobbyok]

Keiths was bought by Labatt in the sixties prior (I think) to Power Corp buying Labatt and only kept open because of the provincial trade restrictions. The Belgians came up with the historic IPA garbage in '95 as a means of hustling Stella and the Keiths growth was a bonus though I consider it to be one of Canada's most embarrassing beers.

Oland bought Keith's in the 20's. Labatt bought Oland in '71. You know the rest. Though I note that somebody has apparently had all the references to those dates removed from the Keith's and Oland wikipedia entries.

[sprague11]

First - Mill Street. Up North you can find it everywhere. Not the case with Steamwhistle.

Canada - Unibroue

[midlife crisis]

For me, Black Oak came to mind first. May just be because there is lots in my fridge at the moment.

[Derek]

Do you need simple product identification for a brand? A logo? A package?

I think this is why Steamwhistle came to my mind first. They've got the logo and the painted green bottles... making a very distinct product package.

Mill street has the retro painted bottles as well.

Sleeman had the unique clear bottles, which initially set that brand apart.

That said, Amsterdam often uses clear bottles with a generic main label (for brand identification), along with a smaller neck label for product identification. This seems like a reasonable model for a brand with many products, but I'm not sure it works in this case? Is the generic label too busy? Or is it complicated with cans & larger bottles?

Heritage has the stubbies, which I love, but I'm not sure if that has cemented their identity either.

[Philip1]

I live outside the GTA. Four brands immediately popped into my head. Cameron's, which was in a way the first non-macro I started drinking on a regular basis. Steam Whistle, in part because of their distinctive bottle and shape of the of the front of their taps at pubs, and a lot of normal people (non-Bartoweller types!) seem to drink it. Hockley Valley Brewing Co because it is local; I doubt it has much brand recognition elsewhere. And last, but not least, Creemore because it is often the only micro widely available along side the macros at my local bars and restaurants and it has a lot of space at both TBS and the LCBO.

For me outside of Ontario I think of Big Rock, especially Grasshopper, the first Canadian non-macro that someone I knew drank on occasion and it always stands out at my local TBS. (There's a poster of it as one enters the beer area and it sits beside beers that I drink a lot of, such as McAuslan's beers, especially St Ambroise Pale Ale, which I think could also be added to the non-Ontario list).

Other than the Labatt's and Molson names Unibroue (especially Blanche de Chambly) and Moosehead beers are the only ones I've seen in Europe.

[icemachine]

"If I were to ask you which of the Ontario craft breweries comes to mind first -- which brand would be top of mind? What would your #2 and #3 picks be? And, if I asked you to identify a Canadian beer brand in the craft and specialty category (so not limited to Ontario) -- what would be top of mind?

I'm looking more for the responses to be "top of mind Ontario/Canadian craft brand" rather than "it's my favorite Ontario/Canadian craft brand"

Following this criteria

Steamwhistle
Mill Street

I hear radio ads and see their branded ware everywhere. Can't say the same for any other OCB brewer. I don't include Sleeman since they are practically a Regional scale brewer.

Going Out of Province

Unibroue
MacAuslan/ St. Ambroise
Big Rock

[Jon Walker]

It is interesting from my perspective to see Jon's comments though he may be throwing them out just to get some of us going.

To I certain degree I was. The original question simply isn't an easily answered one for the average beer drinker, and to a degree for the well informed one. The lines have been deliberately blurred between macro and micro by mid level brewers or macro subsids that want the public to think micro even though the process and the product don't merit the label.

Lakeport's entire ad campaign was originally filled with references to how they were better than "the big guys". The obvious aim there was to seduce people into believing that anything made in Canada not labelled Labatt or Molson is therefore micro.

So the "top of mind" criteria originally posited is a tricky one to answer. What is the volume cutoff to be considered craft and in so measuring how do such smaller entities brand identify to the larger market with limited advertising resources to do so?

Most true micros don't have the budget to do a lot of advertising so their "top of mind" status remains marginalized. The ones who do it best IMHO are Mill Street and Creemore in Ontario and St.Ambroise, Unibroue and again Mill Street nationally. It should escape nobody that all those mentioned are larger micros with more capital to market with.

[JerCraigs]

Lakeport's entire ad campaign was originally filled with references to how they were better than "the big guys". The obvious aim there was to seduce people into believing that anything made in Canada not labelled Labatt or Molson is therefore micro.

So the "top of mind" criteria originally posited is a tricky one to answer. What is the volume cutoff to be considered craft and in so measuring how do such smaller entities brand identify to the larger market with limited advertising resources to do so?

Most true micros don't have the budget to do a lot of advertising so their "top of mind" status remains marginalized. The ones who do it best IMHO are Mill Street and Creemore in Ontario and St.Ambroise, Unibroue and again Mill Street nationally. It should escape nobody that all those mentioned are larger micros with more capital to market with.

I don't think volume is a criteria for "craft". There are plenty of microbreweries producing crappy beer. There are some pretty large breweries producing "Craft" beer (e.g. Stone, Sierra Nevada, New Belgium, etc.).

How GOOD does a breweries products have to be to be considered craft? Steelback joined (or wanted to join?) the Ontario Craft Brewers association at one point... Even with their eventual improvements I think many people would consider this a controversial inclusion. Similarly some of the breweries featured in the Vancouver beer week video are not necessarily ones I would hold up as being in the top breweries in the province...


Without singling out anyone specific, if you had to rank all of the Ontario breweries by quality, how many would make the cut by your definition of "craft"? Great beer is craft. Good beer is craft. Is "decent", "adequate" beer "craft"? Is an average or mediocre beer produced with an artisanal, or craft mindset better than mass produced awesome beer?

[matt7215]

Lakeport's entire ad campaign was originally filled with references to how they were better than "the big guys". The obvious aim there was to seduce people into believing that anything made in Canada not labelled Labatt or Molson is therefore micro.

So the "top of mind" criteria originally posited is a tricky one to answer. What is the volume cutoff to be considered craft and in so measuring how do such smaller entities brand identify to the larger market with limited advertising resources to do so?

Most true micros don't have the budget to do a lot of advertising so their "top of mind" status remains marginalized. The ones who do it best IMHO are Mill Street and Creemore in Ontario and St.Ambroise, Unibroue and again Mill Street nationally. It should escape nobody that all those mentioned are larger micros with more capital to market with.

I don't think volume is a criteria for "craft". There are plenty of microbreweries producing crappy beer. There are some pretty large breweries producing "Craft" beer (e.g. Stone, Sierra Nevada, New Belgium, etc.).

How GOOD does a breweries products have to be to be considered craft? Steelback joined (or wanted to join?) the Ontario Craft Brewers association at one point... Even with their eventual improvements I think many people would consider this a controversial inclusion. Similarly some of the breweries featured in the Vancouver beer week video are not necessarily ones I would hold up as being in the top breweries in the province...


Without singling out anyone specific, if you had to rank all of the Ontario breweries by quality, how many would make the cut by your definition of "craft"? Great beer is craft. Good beer is craft. Is "decent", "adequate" beer "craft"? Is an average or mediocre beer produced with an artisanal, or craft mindset better than mass produced awesome beer?

great post jerc, it really brings up the question of how many breweries in this province are artisanal. we certainly have more "small breweries" then "craft breweries"

we also have a shocking amount of fence sitters who are small and brew very safe craft beer. 2 examples of this type of brewery; Wellington, and Camerons. Both make good beer on a small scale but neither are pushing the craft beer movement.

[GregClow]

we also have a shocking amount of fence sitters who are small and brew very safe craft beer. 2 examples of this type of brewery; Wellington, and Camerons. Both make good beer on a small scale but neither are pushing the craft beer movement.

For Cameron's, I'd agree with you in terms of their regular brands - i.e. very good beers, but not pushing any boundaries. But they've done some really interesting one-offs for their cask nights and special events.

The problem is that unlike other breweries of a similar size and philosophy - like Black Oak or Great Lakes. for example - they haven't promoted any of these one-offs up to being seasonals that are more widely available. I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem selling through a seasonal release or two via their retail store or as a limited LCBO release.

Than again, maybe they don't have the capacity - or even the interest - to do this sort of thing.

[Jon Walker]

All good points...

Even though it strays us a bit off topic I wonder if we can collectively agree on the criteria that determines craft. If there is a definitive criteria I've never heard it adequately arcticulated. Is making great beer the only standard? Is making it using a certain process definitive? Does Reinheitsgebot enter into it (forgive me if I misspelled it)? Is it about innovation and creativity? Curious to hear your thoughts.

[matt7215]

we also have a shocking amount of fence sitters who are small and brew very safe craft beer. 2 examples of this type of brewery; Wellington, and Camerons. Both make good beer on a small scale but neither are pushing the craft beer movement.

For Cameron's, I'd agree with you in terms of their regular brands - i.e. very good beers, but not pushing any boundaries. But they've done some really interesting one-offs for their cask nights and special events.

The problem is that unlike other breweries of a similar size and philosophy - like Black Oak or Great Lakes. for example - they haven't promoted any of these one-offs up to being seasonals that are more widely available. I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem selling through a seasonal release or two via their retail store or as a limited LCBO release.

Than again, maybe they don't have the capacity - or even the interest - to do this sort of thing.

but the fact the someone at camerons takes the time and has the desire to make more interesting beers but only for special events actually frustraits me even more. IMO it shows a lack of faith in the potential of that type of beer to sell in this province.

[JerCraigs]

but the fact the someone at camerons takes the time and has the desire to make more interesting beers but only for special events actually frustraits me even more. IMO it shows a lack of faith in the potential of that type of beer to sell in this province.

http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

If we (Cameron's) were to brew a double IPA will these bars take the 80+ kegs that make up our batch size? Will they consume them as quickly as we can sell a tank of Auburn Ale? I would love to introduce new beers every month but as it has been said before the costs and red tape are limiting and we already sell our beer as fast as we can make it. At the end of the day we are a business and we need to make money to keep the doors open and risking equipment tie up on "off the wall" beers is just that, risky.

Most Ontario breweries are growing so someone must like this "bland" beer we are producing?

[matt7215]

but the fact the someone at camerons takes the time and has the desire to make more interesting beers but only for special events actually frustraits me even more. IMO it shows a lack of faith in the potential of that type of beer to sell in this province.

http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

If we (Cameron's) were to brew a double IPA will these bars take the 80+ kegs that make up our batch size? Will they consume them as quickly as we can sell a tank of Auburn Ale? I would love to introduce new beers every month but as it has been said before the costs and red tape are limiting and we already sell our beer as fast as we can make it. At the end of the day we are a business and we need to make money to keep the doors open and risking equipment tie up on "off the wall" beers is just that, risky.

Most Ontario breweries are growing so someone must like this "bland" beer we are producing?

thx for the link to this thread, its a very insightful look into the brewing philosophy in ontario, both today and in 2007.

so breweries in the province today are still very afraid to take the next step and produce beer that is current.

the Imperial Stout fad came and went with little fan fair in Ontario

the IIPA fad came and went with no real examples until 2010

the Sour fad came and is fading but certainly never caught on amoungst our 50+ breweries

it boggles my mind that for the most part all of the breweries in this province are trying to brew the same type of beer (safe session style "craft") and very few are taking any steps forward.

Great Lakes certainly is and has been since 2007

Grand River was a welcomed shot in the arm and continues to do great things

Beaus is trying and certainly has their fans, the same can be said for Railway City

Durham continues to make great beer as long as you live in a place where you can actually purchase it.

But the most exciting brewery in the province today IMO is Flying Monkeys, they really seem to be trying to break the mold as far as what is availible and what is missing in this province. if and when netherworld hit LCBO shelves it will be the first of its kind, if they follow it up with a real West Coast IPA and can get it into the LCBO, well id buy stock if I could.

so to sum up we have it better then we did in 2007 but not by much and much thanks goes out to the breweries that are trying to change the craft beer picture in ontario!

hopefully you get the support you deserve