Perfect Pint Law for Ontario?

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cattersley
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Perfect Pint Law for Ontario?

Postby cattersley » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:23 pm

I have noticed something in my travels in Toronto. Something that just annoyed me, and probably will make the letter going to my MPP. Is there a need for a perfect pint law in Ontario. We are a metric country for the most part. I am 29, to me a pint is and always will be 20 oz. But I am noticing in more then one menu from place to place serving sizes saying that they are a pint and the in brackets; (500 ml) or a metric pint. I started a discussion with my father and some of his friends, most saying that they never read the fine print on drink menu's in bars (that is if they even have one). I no there has been a perfect pint law in the UK for some time now since a government study showed that pubs were ripping the public out of millions of pounds because of under-pouring. I have even went to more then one place even just recently and a pint was on the menu in brackets it had; (18 oz), also not a pint. To me as a consumer I think going out to a bar now days is expensive. The mark-up and taxes are nuts, but then to doop the ignorant and or unobservant I believe is wrong. Your thoughts bar towel?

- cattersley.
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Re: Perfect Pint Law for Ontario?

Postby Torontoblue » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:11 pm

cattersley wrote:I have noticed something in my travels in Toronto. Something that just annoyed me, and probably will make the letter going to my MPP. Is there a need for a perfect pint law in Ontario. We are a metric country for the most part. I am 29, to me a pint is and always will be 20 oz. But I am noticing in more then one menu from place to place serving sizes saying that they are a pint and the in brackets; (500 ml) or a metric pint. I started a discussion with my father and some of his friends, most saying that they never read the fine print on drink menu's in bars (that is if they even have one). I no there has been a perfect pint law in the UK for some time now since a government study showed that pubs were ripping the public out of millions of pounds because of under-pouring. I have even went to more then one place even just recently and a pint was on the menu in brackets it had; (18 oz), also not a pint. To me as a consumer I think going out to a bar now days is expensive. The mark-up and taxes are nuts, but then to doop the ignorant and or unobservant I believe is wrong. Your thoughts bar towel?

- cattersley.


There is no perfect pint law in the UK. CAMRA have been pushing for this for years, yet the Government and Pubco's brush it under the carpet. Some bars have a full pint measure glass, some have lined glasses with an inch or so to the top and some bars have over sized glasses so you get a pint of liquid and an inch or so of froth (these are very few and far between). It is a 'given' practice that if you pint of liquid isn't to the top of the glass, or there is more than an inch of head, then you can ask for it to be topped up. The good bars in the UK won't actually give you your pint until the serving measure is correct. This very rarely happens over here.

From what I have noticed in the years living in Canada is that the majority of drinkers just accept what is poured; whether it is a short pour, an off beer, or a cloudy cask. People are to non-confrontational and just plod along.

Anyway, what's with the new question; I thought you were flouncing out of here? :wink:
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Re: Perfect Pint Law for Ontario?

Postby Belgian » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:35 pm

cattersley wrote:....To me as a consumer I think going out to a bar now days is expensive. The mark-up and taxes are nuts, but then to doop the ignorant and or unobservant I believe is wrong. Your thoughts bar towel?


Well ultimately our 'liquor laws' pretend to look after a (presumably) ignorant and stupid public, so if it became a big visible public issue the LLBO would be all over this. It's remarkable we do not have standardized bar glassware with volume markings. Look at LCBO lab testing and how control-freaky our province is about precise liquor transactions. We ARE paying taxes by the milliliter alcohol content of beverages, are we not? Is a short-pour then not a fraudulent collection of tax?

Enforcing fair pours would be no big deal, not any more than adapting metric measures or any other European trend. The reality is, as things now are, Ontario get their cash whether or not the consumer gets the goods in full. Vote with where you drink.
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Postby GregClow » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:38 pm

For me, as long as the menu lists the serving size in ounces or millilitres, I'm fine with it. That lets me know what I'm paying for, and I can decide if I think it's worth the money or not.

Yes, I know that a pint is an official unit of measure - or rather, TWO units of measure: the Imperial (20 imp oz/568 ml) and the US (16 US oz/473 ml). But it has become genercized, and to many people just means "a glass of beer somewhat larger than a standard bottle". So whether the bar/restaurant calls it a "pint" or not, I want to see the exact measure listed somewhere in oz or ml.

It's the places that DON'T list a measure anywhere that I have a problem with.
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Perfect pint law for Ontario.

Postby Beer Snob » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:01 pm

My observations when out and about in Toronto normally result in frustration regarding short measures and high prices given that a not inexpensive glass of beer incurs an additional charge of extra tax and tip.
Commonly glasses used in Toronto are 18oz/50cl glasses except one establishment claims a 50cl measure and then hands you a straight sided 'flower vase' that maybe holds 40cl at best, but with what looks like a mouthful already missing. Another establishnent notes that the 'pint' is 18oz except on delivery to your table is missing the top 2oz.
Why serve a beer with a head when it wont last as far as the drinkers table?
Give me the bloody beer I'm paying for and that is on the menu!
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Postby cratez » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:52 pm

GregClow wrote: For me, as long as the menu lists the serving size in ounces or millilitres, I'm fine with it. That lets me know what I'm paying for, and I can decide if I think it's worth the money or not.

Yes, I know that a pint is an official unit of measure - or rather, TWO units of measure: the Imperial (20 imp oz/568 ml) and the US (16 US oz/473 ml). But it has become genercized, and to many people just means "a glass of beer somewhat larger than a standard bottle". So whether the bar/restaurant calls it a "pint" or not, I want to see the exact measure listed somewhere in oz or ml.

It's the places that DON'T list a measure anywhere that I have a problem with.


I agree with Greg. I'm fine with getting a 16 oz U.S. pint as long as it's in the ballpark of $4 to $5.50 per glass. Oftentimes you pay more for 20 oz pints anyway, and because I'm interested in having variety during my sessions, receiving more beer (all 4 oz!) at a higher price isn't necessarily a good thing. With smaller pints priced accordingly, I can enjoy four different beers instead of the three that I would limit myself to when drinking imperial pints (since four 20 oz pints is 16 ounces - or a full glass - more than four U.S. pints).
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Re: Perfect pint law for Ontario.

Postby Belgian » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:24 pm

Sure I would go along with a mix of metric AND imperial so long as the serving size were clearly announced, preferably on the draught slate along with the ABV.

Beer Snob wrote:My observations when out and about in Toronto normally result in frustration regarding short measures and high prices given that a not inexpensive glass of beer incurs an additional charge of extra tax and tip.


It's a side issue, but I agree TO beer prices are getting sky-high - to compare, drinking in Montreal seems to cost at least one-third less in the overall add-up.

More to topic, the measures & ABV are often clearly posted in Montreal, which seems a little more open and fair.
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Postby cattersley » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:09 pm

I ended up emailing my MMP, and he called me today, left a message on the phone and was very interested in discussing the matter. His words, "was one of the most interesting topics sent to him in years,' and that 'no one has ever brought the subject up', and that 'I don't read the fine print and to me a pint is 20 oz'. He then gave me a phone number to call him. I will post the results if any, and a positive/and or negative endorsement with this individual when it is concluded.

Bottom line, if you are serving pints stipulate Metric, or Imperial British in oz & metric. Older generations have a hard time with metric, my parents, grandparents, older relatives/in-laws haven't a clue of metric...

Toronto beer prices are terrible. Place that offer good beer at good prices are few and far between.

A lot of time when out at bar especially Toronto a cute little female server has come over with my beer and it is under poured. I have even watched it sit there until there is no foam. Tips now seem to be mandatory thing, not for a job well done 90% of time!

I complained a few times at a restaurant/bar when my glass was under poured (some pretty bad) even with markers are the glass. The waitress/bar tender then gave me a dirty and or confused look, then I had a manager come over and aggressively react to me. I am polite when out with my wife/others and even after I explained that my drink was under poured below the marker, and I wasn't paying for something I was getting I have been given a tongue lashing as well as more then one apology.

As far as ABV goes, I have seen a push at bar/taverns that serve craft beer, bar volo, cest what, the bier market, the three brewers, say the alcohol content. Which as a matter or health because everyone is different I believe should be a must. Not two people are alike with what there bodies can handle and when it comes to high gravity brews some can say keep them coming and others like a few friends of mine that are smaller folk get affected quit quickly by them.

At the end of the day, this is a service industry that allows patrons to enjoy a drink, a laugh, and be on there way, but it is a responsibility of an establishment to clearly label what they are serving for the price, and then serve it to you correctly...

- cattersley

PS: I heard through word of mouth about a UK perfect pint law, and when I lived there, a buddy of mine was manager of a pub, all glasses were labeled with markers, a lot of places also had pour machines that would pour a half pint first, and then the other half pint. So it made sense when I heard it.
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Postby Yello to Mello » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:57 pm

Do you mean your MPP?

They might as well do it with wine and spirits too. With beers you cant really water down but I heard stories with mixed drinks, it would be harder...I dont even know if its 1oz pours of spirit here in Ontario....Im guessing it is, if it is it sucks.
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Postby cannondale » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:38 pm

I just take a graduated cylinder with me whenever I go out for a drink. Otherwise, how can I possibly manage to judge whether or not I'm getting fair value for my money?

I also take a digital scale to the grocery store, a stopwatch to the massage therapist, and I always have a tape measure and thermometer at the ready when buying pizza. But I suppose that's getting a little too far afield..
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Postby matt7215 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:50 pm

cannondale wrote:I just take a graduated cylinder with me whenever I go out for a drink. Otherwise, how can I possibly manage to judge whether or not I'm getting fair value for my money?

I also bring a digital scale to the grocery store, a stopwatch to the massage therapist, and I always have a tape measure and thermometer at the ready when buying pizza. But I suppose that's getting a little too far afield..


i used to do this too but one time i got confused and brought a tape measure and thermometer to my massage therapist. when she asked me what they were for i paniced and pulled out my graduated cylinder.

that was the most ackward 58 min and 27 seconds of my life
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Postby NRman » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:25 pm

matt7215 wrote:
cannondale wrote:I just take a graduated cylinder with me whenever I go out for a drink. Otherwise, how can I possibly manage to judge whether or not I'm getting fair value for my money?

I also bring a digital scale to the grocery store, a stopwatch to the massage therapist, and I always have a tape measure and thermometer at the ready when buying pizza. But I suppose that's getting a little too far afield..


i used to do this too but one time i got confused and brought a tape measure and thermometer to my massage therapist. when she asked me what they were for i paniced and pulled out my graduated cylinder.

that was the most ackward 58 min and 27 seconds of my life


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Postby NRman » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:38 pm

Yello to Mello wrote:They might as well do it with wine and spirits too. With beers you cant really water down but I heard stories with mixed drinks, it would be harder..


For your consideration:

South Carolina became the last state in the US to adopt free pour for liquor in 2006. Before that it was only 50ml mini bottles in bars (1.75 oz) per drink. Hmmmm??
Now they are "free" to be watered down like everyone else!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Caro ... cohol_laws

The lesson here in a free pour/draught beer world? Tip your bartender! :D
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Postby Belgian » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:10 pm

Here's a tip: don't bite the hand.
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Postby Torontoblue » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:28 pm

Belgian wrote:Here's a tip: don't bite the hand.


Are you saying accept what is poured?

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