Booze In The Ontario Election

[cratez]

The NDP...is the mortal enemy of those in favour of any kind of liberalization.

Yeah, it's unfortunate that they've taken a delusional stance on the LCBO and our current liquor system, but I'll still vote for them since I agree with the party on many other, more important issues, and I shudder to think of the ruin that the PCs would inflict on this province should they form a government.

Despite the suggestion above that this is a major issue, it just ain't.

I don't think it's a primary election issue - things like education, health care, the economy, the environment, and taxes/spending tend to dominate provincial elections - but the CBC obviously believes it's prominent enough to include in the survey, and the fact that it's garnered responses and/or policy stances from all of the major parties suggests that, at a minimum, it's no longer a distant fringe issue. That's all I was saying.

[cratez]

I have a question for anybody who is knowledgeable on this topic. If the province did allow for liquor sales in convenience stores, and presuming there weren't any specific restrictions placed on the types of alcohol that these stores could order and sell (a major assumption, I know), would there be anything in place that would prevent a store owner from purchasing a) Canadian craft beer through agencies like keep6imports and North American Craft, b) Ontario craft beer directly from the breweries, and c) imports from agents like Roland & Russell, and selling those beers at their store?

If the answer is "no," I see promise in permitting corner store booze sales, since a particularly entrepreneurial - and most likely independent - store owner could potentially cater to the craft beer crowd while stocking enough junk food to maintain their "convenience store" status. I'd love to hear from the experts on whether or not this would be doable. Cheers

[SteelbackGuy]

I have a question for anybody who is knowledgeable on this topic. If the province did allow for liquor sales in convenience stores, and presuming there weren't any specific restrictions placed on the types of alcohol that these stores could order and sell (a major assumption, I know), would there be anything in place that would prevent a store owner from purchasing a) Canadian craft beer through agencies like keep6imports and North American Craft, b) Ontario craft beer directly from the breweries, and c) imports from agents like Roland & Russell, and selling those beers at their store?

The simple answer is yes.
If corner stores sales were allowed tomorrow, the AGCO would still require all of the testing and all the other bureaucratic stuff that comes along with a product being allowed to be sold in the province.

[cratez]

The simple answer is yes. If corner stores sales were allowed tomorrow, the AGCO would still require all of the testing and all the other bureaucratic stuff that comes along with a product being allowed to be sold in the province.

The testing is not what I was asking about. I'm asking whether there is anything - legally or otherwise - that would prevent a store owner from stocking the products I mentioned.

[Kel Varnsen]

The simple answer is yes. If corner stores sales were allowed tomorrow, the AGCO would still require all of the testing and all the other bureaucratic stuff that comes along with a product being allowed to be sold in the province.

The testing is not what I was asking about. I'm asking whether there is anything - legally or otherwise - that would prevent a store owner from stocking the products I mentioned.

I imagine testing and approval would be the big hurdle for Ontario products (since otherwise what would stop some guy from selling beer made in his basement in filthy containers at a corner store). But other than that I can't see there being too many issues. US products are a different story since there would be all kinds of requirements they would have to meet, some simple ones being metric lables, and French where it is required. I can see how for a US brewer it might be worth it to go through those hassles in order to get a huge order from the LCBO. To go through the same hassle to get shelf space in Joe's Corner store might be a bigger issue for them.

[JerCraigs]

The government will never be completely out of the picture, there will still be testing and taxation in some form. But @Cratez, if they change the laws then yes, there is in theory no reason such a store can't sell whatever they can import.

There are pros and cons to this possibility though.
1) TBS and LCBO actually take relatively good care of the product, despite complaints about delays in delivery. Not every store is going to do that.

2) The LCBO has the advantage of large purchases. This means that corner stores may not be able to a) bring in enough product to even interest a brewery, and b) may charge more to make it worthwhile. The importers obviously play a role here potentially since they could distribute to both stores and licensees, etc.

I have long said that a single store in the GTA that could sale whatever they can get, would be a huge deal. Just being able to buy 1-5 bottles of something rather than private ordering a full case would be awesome. That said, if you live anywhere besides Toronto, or another major urban centre privatization is not necessarily going to be a good thing. Beer at the corner store is not a step up if its nothing but Molbatt's products.

[cmadd]

1) TBS and LCBO actually take relatively good care of the product, despite complaints about delays in delivery. Not every store is going to do that.

I hate to jump on this, because I'm sure I agree with you. And I'm sure you've thought about all that I'm about to say, but I've seen too many people trotting around 'issues' like this. Not every store is going to carry good beer, not every store is going to take care of their beer, not every store is going to hire helpful employees, ...

You get it. Nevermind that that sounds a lot like the LCBO already, in a private system is doesn't matter if 90% of the stores sell only James Ready that is 2 years old.

Imagine this situation: The gov't decides that liquor licenses are too difficult to regulate, so now no one is allowed to serve beer except LCBO run bars. 50 years down the line Ontarians have all forgotten what it was like when bars were private. A debate springs up on a beer-enthusiast message board about whether bars should be privatized. Now imagine someone arguing,

"Well, I don't think bars should be privatized, because there will be quality control. Who knows what garbage they'll pour and in what condition!"

-- back to the present day --

They sound crazy, right? Do you not think most bars are beyond the pale? And yet despite rampant lack of regulation in terms of selection we get bars like Bar Volo or Beer Bistro or the Rhino or...

You get it.

And about the advantage of large purchases: if there were one store in all of Ontario that sold what Bar Volo already brings in for onsite consumption I would be fucking ecstatic.

[Belgian]

There are pros and cons to this possibility though.
1) TBS and LCBO actually take relatively good care of the product, despite complaints about delays in delivery. Not every (private) store is going to do that.

2) The LCBO has the advantage of large purchases. This means that corner stores may not be able to a) bring in enough product to even interest a brewery, and b) may charge more to make it worthwhile. The importers obviously play a role here potentially since they could distribute to both stores and licensees, etc.

I have long said that a single store in the GTA that could sell whatever they can get would be a huge deal.

I agree with those points. To flesh these out I would suggest:

to 1)
- LC also sometimes abuses products by excessive warehousing & otherwise delaying store arrival (esp hoppy pale beers) ...and by not regularly discounting products that aren't moving in a given store (old stock sits and rots until sold.) Those give Indie stores the edge.
They LC also still sometimes place beer in bright windows, and fail to refrigerate unpasteurized beer - just like some Indie stores would - and you could be just as selective where you shopped in either case (not the idiot stores.)

to 2)
- for every 'advantage' of a large purchase buyer like the LC there is a disadvantage - first of all some producers simply won't sell beer to our market because they hate our crass beaurocratic monster. So maybe with Indie stores we'd lose some (not all) brewers, yet gain other, potentially better ones (the smaller production ones.)
I still agree that - sometimes - the LC gives us an edge in buying power / shelf pricing, and - sometimes - gets us fresh beer very quickly (or at least you have some idea how fresh.)

Lots of hypotheticals.

I think in reality the LC might continue to improve selection and consumer friendliness at just an adequate rate to fend off ideas of competition. They have lots of power & positioning to play that game for many years - and we're already supporting them.

[JerCraigs]

I'm not saying that those are reasons not to do it, just that privatization is not all sunshine and roses. As much of a pain as TBS and the LCBO can be, most brewers have figured out how to work within that system. There are downsides to working with a higher number of stores, and distribution systems.

On the plus side, I think agencies like Northern Craft are in a great position to help brewers expand and deal with some of those issues.

[cratez]

Thanks for answering my question folks. Lots of good points, and I'm glad this issue is being discussed/debated. Regarding Jer's point:

I have long said that a single store in the GTA that could sale whatever they can get, would be a huge deal. Just being able to buy 1-5 bottles of something rather than private ordering a full case would be awesome.

I would go a step further and say that, providing there weren't any unnecessary restrictions placed on the convenience stores, some savvy entrepreneurs would likely be able to capitalize on such an opportunity in at least four of our major urban centres (Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton, and London to start). Growth in smaller cities with a demonstrated commitment to craft beer - like Peterborough, Cambridge, and Waterloo - would probably follow from there.

Of course, all of this is hypothetical right now, but I think these ideas are at least worth considering should we ever see the province allow corner store sales.

[NRman]

I wouldn't need or expect every corner store to sell decent beer. Every podunk US town has a good beer store. I don't need 10, I need 1.

Wilkes Barre PA Pop 45000 1000 different beers
http://www.georgetowndeli.com/beer-by-brewery

Bethlehem PA Pop 75000
http://abescoldbeer.com/beer.html

we all have our favourites.

[cratez]

I wouldn't need or expect every corner store to sell decent beer. Every podunk US town has a good beer store. I don't need 10, I need 1.

Yes. Presumably most stores - especially the chain franchises - would only stock BMC and Labatt/Molson/Sleeman, but the cities referenced above would probably support at least one craft-focused store, if not a few (in the case of Toronto).

Alas, I'll stop with the wishful thinking, especially since I'm not even willing to vote for the two parties that would make this dream a reality.

[midlife crisis]

Then I respectfully suggest you change your voting intention.

[Tapsucker]

Back in the spring I was in the Minden LCBO and I commented to the cashier about the lousy selection of craft beer and wine. I also mentioned to her the few sixes of beer they had were badly out of date.

She directed me to the BS next door for better selection. When I mentioned that we count on the LCBO to offer things the BS won't stock, she politely explained that "this town doesn't drink enough good beer for us to stock it" and "why do you think we have expired product, it hasn't sold".

A little peeved, I went next door to the BS and found they had a pretty decent craft selection (for a small town). I asked how well it sold and they said there is a pretty hefty appetite for good beer and not just from the cottagers. I told them what the LCBO said and they replied with "that's why there is competition!"

I went back next door to the LCBO and apologized for the beer comments and asked them to make an effort to improve their wine selection. What else was I going to do...

[midlife crisis]

Agreed. Competition is good. Since this is a political thread (otherwise I'd rather leave politics out of beer), I would simply ask which party in the upcoming election is most likely to promote free market competition (not just in beer, but for our overall economic welfare)?