Let's hope this is a sign of better things to come.

[rejtable]

If they allow any private stores then they have to allow foreign ones too (beyond foreign owned BS) and they might have to remove the state 'competition' of the LCBO. In other words it's going to have to be either a fully private or fully public system, no hybrids or the lawyers will go to work.

But other provinces (BC, NS and QC come to mind) have both a public and a private retail operation running side by side. So, unless there is something specific in NAFTA dealing with ON, I can't see this all or nothing being right.

[Tapsucker]

If they allow any private stores then they have to allow foreign ones too (beyond foreign owned BS) and they might have to remove the state 'competition' of the LCBO. In other words it's going to have to be either a fully private or fully public system, no hybrids or the lawyers will go to work.

But other provinces (BC, NS and QC come to mind) have both a public and a private retail operation running side by side. So, unless there is something specific in NAFTA dealing with ON, I can't see this all or nothing being right.

Somewhere I heard it was due to the status quo at the time when NAFTA was implemented. Other provinces already had different systems. Somehow Ontario had to get stuck in time or change all together. I'm probably wrong, but that's the line I've been fed a few times.

Given the power of the big business lobby and the cash cow LCBO, I would not be surprised if its not just all a big political excuse.

[rejtable]

Somewhere I heard it was due to the status quo at the time when NAFTA was implemented. Other provinces already had different systems. Somehow Ontario had to get stuck in time or change all together. I'm probably wrong, but that's the line I've been fed a few times.

Given the power of the big business lobby and the cash cow LCBO, I would not be surprised if its not just all a big political excuse.

NS changes definitely were after NAFTA.

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Let me recap. Imagine this hypothetical. A private store in Alberta that sells beer. Just craft beer. As a matter of store policy it refuses to sell any beer from any multinational beer company (like Molson, or InBev, etc.) There's a sign in the window that says "we sell only craft beer from Alberta and a selection of Canadian craft beer from coast-to-coast".

My understanding is that the above is illegal under NAFTA, regardless of whether it's a private store (like my Alberta example) or a government-owned store.

All private booze stores, in the provinces that permit them, exist only through government permission (relevant sections of legislation).

I doubt some NAFTA bureaucrat has the right to tell a private business owner what he can and can't do with his business. It's more likely that the government isn't allowed to pass laws that prohibit any business from competing, which does effectively kill any idea of an OCB-only store. Which is good, because an OCB-only store is an even worse idea than the current LCBO retail model.

That being said, I wonder if there is a middle ground compromise somewhere. Something along the lines of a chain of stores that had to maintain a certain level of "OnCon" (Ontario Content), say 30%, but were permitted to fill the rest of their store with whatever products they wanted.

[The Mick]

I am not sure it has to be an all or nothing situation, although everything I know about this subject comes from this site. The way I see it, right now we have a government controlled system where any beer produced in the NAFTA countries has the same access to the Beer Store and the LCBO. Other than a few wine stores those are the only real retail options allowed under Ontario Law. Now say that the government gave the OCB some kind of exemption to the law to allow them to open an OCB only store in downtown Toronto. At this point a brewer from say Vermont can sell in the LCBO and the Beer store if he wanted to, but he is unable to sell in the OCB store, and the Vermont Brewers association is unable to open their own store. From what little I know it seems like there could be an argument for it being unfair. Hell even if you were molson the fact that Mill Street would have access to a store that you don't could be argued as unfair or something.

Maybe if they opened up OCB run stores that the big guys could list in for a base fee plus an addition fee per store listing (as is the case at the BS for everyone except the ownership) that would be a way to make the above idea work? I doubt Molson and the like would bother listing there anyways because the cost wouldn't be justified due to their current distribution and the type of clientele that would shop in these stores, but as long as there was an option for them it would be a "level playing field"

Alternatively maybe they could agree that the stores could only sell beers from Micros, as defined by the Brewers' Association.

And like Ale's What Cures Ya said, not OCB only stores, OCB run stores. Stores that sell a percentage of Ontario stuff and then whatever other craft they can source, Canadian or otherwise.

[xocoatl]

What would the advantages be of having a seperate OCB store vs fixing any issues with the LCBO and making it easier for Ontario and Canadian craft breweries to get listings there?

[The Mick]

Assuming that the OCB is comprised of people who are dedicated to craft beer, they would hopefully try to source some of the better micros from not only Canada, but the US as well. Maybe this already happens at the LCBO, but I was under the impression that the LCBO is USUALLY approached by different breweries who want to sell there, but that might be my own narrow view point. Having a store that actively seeks out better beers would be plus.

Possibly it could mean a drop in the price of Ontario craft beer as the more of the profits would go to the Ontario brewers directly than it does from the BS or LCBO, if the store were run by the OCB.

It could increase the visibility to other non-craft drinkers and possibly help guide newbies in trying and buying craft. If the sole purpose of the staff is to sell craft beer then they would have more knowledge of the products than the average LCBO employee, who has to cover wine, beer, spirits and anything else in the store. I'm not saying the LC employees are all devoid of knowledge about craft, some know more than me I'm sure, but having someone who is trained and knows about the products would be beneficial for consumers and brewers.

There are probably some others, but I have to get back to work. To be honest I don't have major issues with the LCBO. They've been continually improving their selection and putting more of an emphasis on good beer. For the sake of discussion though, I feel like the above would be some of the advantages of having an OCB run/predominantly craft retail store in Ontario. It doesn't hurt to dream

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

What would the advantages be of having a seperate OCB store vs fixing any issues with the LCBO and making it easier for Ontario and Canadian craft breweries to get listings there?

The advantages would be better trained staffed, better availability, better service, and we'd be making progress to a much better system. A system where the government is only marginally involved. Any progress toward complete (or nearly complete) privatization is a good thing.