Mill St Brew Pub Theme Dinners, mandatory tipping...

[cattersley]

This is a curiosity question about how people feel about this... tips, looking at the adverts for these theme night dinner it stats tax and gratuities. The last time I checked a tip was give for a job exceptionally done. A tip is not a mandatory thing. It is not a wage subsidy... I give tips where I feel they are earned and at my digression, meaning % before tax. I mentioned something on Facebook to the Ottawa restaurant, and you tip is added at 15% of the 59.99$. I have been to the Toronto brew pub numerous times with my wife, and Father. Overall I a couple of instances the service was quite good, most of the time though it was nothing special, sometimes sub par. There is no question that the beer is great, the food is good, but when did a tips become a mandatory few so that a business can pay there employee less? You do you job that you are paid for and you a great one, you might get a tip. Granted I have never been to one of these, the menu and beer selection looks great... just doesn't sit well with me about this.

Thoughts?

[JeffPorter]

There is no question that the beer is great, the food is good, but when did a tips become a mandatory few so that a business can pay there employee less?

Well, this is a can of worms, and this is going to be a long one, but here we go...

I get the sentiment, I really do...why should we have to pay more so that employers can pay the workers less? I know of one woman who NEVER tips anything out of some kind of protest...

Rightly or wrongly (probably mostly wrongly) servers, cooks, bussers wages depend on tips. In North America, tips are factored into wages, not really as extras for great service. The AMOUNT of the tip, however, is usually reflective of the level of service (For me - 20% is my base, bad service might get less, good service might get more)

Now (and here's the most important part) the pay-off for us for that, is that the prices on menus are quite a bit lower than they are in other parts of the world (Even if you factor in all the other global variables).

In some places in Europe, there is no tipping and restaurant staff are paid much better than they are here, but menus are also more expensive...so, pick your poison, essentially.

If you want employees to make 20% more than they do, then instead of paying $30 for that beef tenderloin, you'll be paying $36 or even more.

While the system might be greatly flawed, I have a personal problem with people who don't tip. (And this isn't directly at you chattersley, but in general).

On the one hand, yes, why should you have to pay for extra wages when the restaurant gets away with paying for very little?

But the point can be flipped.

If you don't pay a tip, you are essentially getting a cheap meal on my dime, as a person who does pay a tip, and on the server's time, because he or she will often LOSE money on that table. Why should you not have to pay for the total labour costs for your meal when I do, one could ask? Essentially, why should you get a cheaper meal then the rest of us, because you have some philosophical idea about service and tipping? If that's really your philosophy, offer to pay 20-30 percent more on your bill to help cover labour costs.

For the record, I prefer the European approach. Take away tips, pay the servers well, and we'll pay more money to be in your establishment. It's all Even Steven.

Until that happens, though, we're all getting pretty cheap meals. And, sorry, but the system (again, however flawed) is set up that you're not paying for your share if you don't tip.

Now, in the case of a dinner like this, I totally get it...you're probably paying up front...it's a flat rate for the menu. If people just paid in advance and then left, the servers would be out quiet a bit of money.

Ultimately, (and again this is more general) people just need to lighten up and just pay the tip...15...20...25, it's up to you, but don't make them stand on your head and lick your boots, to just make their normal wages.

This is just my two cents.[/i]

[Kel Varnsen]

There is no question that the beer is great, the food is good, but when did a tips become a mandatory few so that a business can pay there employee less?

Well, this is a can of worms, and this is going to be a long one, but here we go...

I get the sentiment, I really do...why should we have to pay more so that employers can pay the workers less? I know of one woman who NEVER tips anything out of some kind of protest...

Rightly or wrongly (probably mostly wrongly) servers, cooks, bussers wages depend on tips. In North America, tips are factored into wages, not really as extras for great service. The AMOUNT of the tip, however, is usually reflective of the level of service (For me - 20% is my base, bad service might get less, good service might get more)

Now (and here's the most important part) the pay-off for us for that, is that the prices on menus are quite a bit lower than they are in other parts of the world (Even if you factor in all the other global variables).

In some places in Europe, there is no tipping and restaurant staff are paid much better than they are here, but menus are also more expensive...so, pick your poison, essentially.

If you want employees to make 20% more than they do, then instead of paying $30 for that beef tenderloin, you'll be paying $36 or even more.

While the system might be greatly flawed, I have a personal problem with people who don't tip. (And this isn't directly at you chattersley, but in general).

On the one hand, yes, why should you have to pay for extra wages when the restaurant gets away with paying for very little?

But the point can be flipped.

If you don't pay a tip, you are essentially getting a cheap meal on my dime, as a person who does pay a tip, and on the server's time, because he or she will often LOSE money on that table. Why should you not have to pay for the total labour costs for your meal when I do, one could ask? Essentially, why should you get a cheaper meal then the rest of us, because you have some philosophical idea about service and tipping? If that's really your philosophy, offer to pay 20-30 percent more on your bill to help cover labour costs.

For the record, I prefer the European approach. Take away tips, pay the servers well, and we'll pay more money to be in your establishment. It's all Even Steven.

Until that happens, though, we're all getting pretty cheap meals. And, sorry, but the system (again, however flawed) is set up that you're not paying for your share if you don't tip.

Now, in the case of a dinner like this, I totally get it...you're probably paying up front...it's a flat rate for the menu. If people just paid in advance and then left, the servers would be out quiet a bit of money.

Ultimately, (and again this is more general) people just need to lighten up and just pay the tip...15...20...25, it's up to you, but don't make them stand on your head and lick your boots, to just make their normal wages.

This is just my two cents.[/i]

I look at it the reverse way, I don't mind tipping since it means that if service sucks then I end up with a cheaper night out.

The problem I have with the concept of eliminating tipping and raising prices on things and paying servers more is the fact that I can't remember the last time I had really good service at a restaurant. If you raise prices and pay everyone more, where is the motivation for waiters and waitresses to be good at their jobs?

As far as this specific case goes I really don't like the idea of manditory tipping. The last time I went to a place with manditory tipping (set at I think 15%) I said to myself that kind of sucks for the server, since no matter how good he is at his job there is no way he is getting anything more than that automatic 15%. Which sucks since for good service I will usually give 20% or more. Actually I think I read somewhere else that really good servers don't like the idea of either manditory tipping or no tips and higher wages since a good server at a busy restaurant can make way more with tips.

[irishkyle21]

Every bar in Ontario should add a 20% tip to every bill. It's simple, they get paid very low wages, have to deal with cheap and annoying people all the time. If you don't like tipping then stay home. I'm lucky enough to work at a great bar with good regulars. If you don't tip here someone will end up letting you know (either the owners, staff or regulars).

[irishkyle21]

Sorry, came off a little dickish. The reason why Mill St is doing this (I'm assuming) is due to the fact the the servers would basically be working for their wages with an event like this cause a lot of people don't think of tipping after a pre paid event. I do agree that the service should be reflected in the tip but I also am a little more understanding cause I've been on both sides for 8 years. Everyone has a bad day here and there.

[Kel Varnsen]

Sorry, came off a little dickish. The reason why Mill St is doing this (I'm assuming) is due to the fact the the servers would basically be working for their wages with an event like this cause a lot of people don't think of tipping after a pre paid event. I do agree that the service should be reflected in the tip but I also am a little more understanding cause I've been on both sides for 8 years. Everyone has a bad day here and there.

Yea in a prepaid event like this, I can totally see the advantage in having a prepaid tip (especially when all the food and drinks are part of package). If you had to tip the night of the event or it wasn't spelled out in advance I could totally see someone not bringing any cash or not realizing they needed to tip and people getting shafted. In this case everyone knows well in advance how things work and there is less confusion for all parties. Although you would have to assume for a fancy event like this that service would be top notch.

[cratez]

They should just be up front about it and say the total price is $77 including tax and gratuity, which is pretty good value for a five-course beer dinner. If you don't like the mandatory tip, you're not obliged to attend. I think the price is fine, but considering the Scotch Ale and Biere de Garde are the only special beers, I personally wouldn't be excited enough to go.

With respect to gratuity in general, I leave 20% of the total bill for outstanding treatment, 15% for above average, 10% for average, and nothing for an offensive experience (which unfortunately happens from time to time). The highest tip I ever left was 25% at The Publican because the service couldn't have been better.

[cattersley]

Here are some more thoughts on this subject(s) brought up, gratuity being the centre of this this thread...

Gratuity is something given of gratitude from a job well if not exceptionably done. This is not an entitlement that if you are a person working in a service industry just because you serve me something you are entitled to a tip...

I tip 10 - 20 %, may higher, depending on a lot of factor including foremost good service! Bill price, location, what ordered, how many people (meaning am I by myself or is my family of 4 including myself). If the service is terrible, then I have not left a tip, and will continue this, rare, but it has happened.

My views on a lot of things have changed since now I am not a single man, but a husband and father of two. I would like to go out with my family or friends, etc, but honestly I don't find things in Ontario to affordable and I abstain from going out because of cost, so when I do, it is something I look forward to. I am on this site and BA because I love good beer. Here in Ontario good cost a lot per pint (if you are actually getting 20 oz), because of taxes and Ontario social responsibility policy, so I need to travel to go to a decent watering hole. All of these things matter to me, so I would care to get half-decent service, and when I do, I tip...

Now in the case of Mill St., my problem is a mandatory tip, none-negotiable percent. That I have a problem with considering I have been to the Toronto location with my wife, and didn't think the service was that good at all...

I also just wanted to get others perspective on here on how they felt on the subject, thanks for everyone who reply(s).

[JeffPorter]

As far as this specific case goes I really don't like the idea of manditory tipping. The last time I went to a place with manditory tipping (set at I think 15%) I said to myself that kind of sucks for the server, since no matter how good he is at his job there is no way he is getting anything more than that automatic 15%. Which sucks since for good service I will usually give 20% or more.

Trust me - Most servers would love an up front 15% gratuity because they get stiffed much more often than they get a good tip.

Also, we can talk about the semantics of what "gratuity" should mean (gratitude, job well done, whatever), but that doesn't reflect the reality of the economics at play (again, for better or for worse).

I can't stress this enough - when you don't tip, it isn't that they're not just getting extra money: the server, the cook, and whoever else is involved, are actually PAYING for part of your meal.

So lets say you went somewhere and the food was great, but the server was a dick, and you were so upset, you left without tipping. In a place where they split their tips, you're now stiffing that cook (who cooked your good meal), to spite the server.

[Weebay]

Food for thought.

At most of the bars I have worked at, servers are charged a % of the cost of the food/drink they sell and if they get a walkout they are responsible for the bill.

[Kel Varnsen]

Trust me - Most servers would love an up front 15% gratuity because they get stiffed much more often than they get a good tip.

If servers are getting stiffed so often, maybe it is an indicator that they should find a new line of works whey they aren't reliant on tips to get by. I am pretty sure I have heard from a few people, both people I know and/or online that were good at their jobs and made awesome money from tips. For people like that a manditory 15% would probably be a pay cut.

So lets say you went somewhere and the food was great, but the server was a dick, and you were so upset, you left without tipping. In a place where they split their tips, you're now stiffing that cook (who cooked your good meal), to spite the server.

In that case it is on the cook to find out why his tip was so poor and maybe put pressure on the server to do a better job so that he gets better tips.

[irishkyle21]

Most people who under tip don't do it cause the service was bad. They do it cause they are cheap, plain and simple. I make good money and enjoy what I do. Sure I can get a better paying job or continue with my education but for me it is a personal choice and as long as I am happy that is all that matters.

For you to say that servers should look for a better job if they are getting shafted so often is not well thought out. A lot of these people can't afford to leave what they have now and seek better education.

[Tapsucker]

I'd like to start off by saying that I always endeavour to tip fairly. I do not punish a server because the system is stupid.

But here is why it is stupid and why I think it undermines good service, good business and fair employment. The key word is professionalism.

When I travel to parts of the world where there is a strong service culture or when I get to visit the occasional standout here at home, the first thing I notice is how the server perceives themselves as a professional. They are not students taking any job they can (though they might be), they are not filling in at daddy's pub (though they might be), they are self-respecting people who also respect their jobs.

Great restaurants train their staff very well and they hire the best people they can. People are a big part of their success. Great servers are constantly trying to better themselves, they take pride in their work. And please note, doing one's job better isn't always about what the customer sees. Much of it is learning to work more efficiently, put less strain on your body (which is huge in this business) and make less mistakes that might come out of your pocket or your employers. Servers also have to keep the peace with the the back of the house to ensure the team is working smoothly.

Our tipping system sabotages all of this.

The first message that it sends to a server is that they are journeymen workers. The employer is not committed to their livelihood and does not respect them as professionals that they want to maintain a relationship with; You want pay? Ask the customer!

The second message is to the customer; "My boss does not consider me a professional, do you?" As a customer I see an organization that does not invest in being the best it can and I wonder where else they cut corners.

Third, the bond between the employer and staff is weakened and if an employer does land an excellent server, they are more likely to lose them. Staff turnover and morale issues are probably the biggest challenges a restaurant has to face. It is very disruptive.

Finally, I think the worst message comes from why all of this started in the first place. This business is traditionally an entry level employer. Many enterprises have hired inexperienced, but promising people. The idea has been, "kid I'll give you a chance, let's see what you can make of yourself". This is a noble thing and very North American which might explain why it's the norm here. However, if you want professionals in any business, be prepared to respect them and compensate them. If they don't work out, fire them and move on. Don't leave them to languish hungry and embarrass your business in front of your customers.

In short: Good servers are professionals, pay them accordingly if you want good servers. If you think your restaurant is make work for your staff, let them beg the customers for income. Just be prepared that your customers can sense how half-assed you are as a business owner.

[KwaiLo]

Most people who under tip don't do it cause the service was bad. They do it cause they are cheap, plain and simple. I make good money and enjoy what I do. Sure I can get a better paying job or continue with my education but for me it is a personal choice and as long as I am happy that is all that matters.

For you to say that servers should look for a better job if they are getting shafted so often is not well thought out. A lot of these people can't afford to leave what they have now and seek better education.

I don't see how the customer is responsible for the employees poor choices.

My wife and I both had wage plus tip jobs in college/ university, and the tips were always more than the wage. Don't be a dick goes a long way in the service industry, but I have stopped going to a large number of places due t he dicks working there.

[Kel Varnsen]

For you to say that servers should look for a better job if they are getting shafted so often is not well thought out. A lot of these people can't afford to leave what they have now and seek better education.

Why would they need to seek better education? If someone is working at a bar or pub and not making any tips for whatever reason according to Ontario Minimum wage they are still making $8.90 an hour. If they wanted to quit and go get a job at McDonalds or Walmart they can get an instant jump in pay to $10.25 an hour, which is the general minimum wage. It would seem pretty obvious that tips that even a bad waiter can make would accont for more than that difference in those two wages. Otherwise why would anyone do that job? I mean even if you get 1 tip an hour at 10% on a $30 bill you are making $11.90 an hour. If someone works 4 tables an hour each with $30 bills and 10% tips they are bringing in almost $21 an hour. Now do you really think if tipping were eliminated and resturants had to pay people more any restaurant would pay anything close to that, especially when the general minimum wage is less than half that?