Well, here's a different take

[Bytowner]

before I make a point I want to state that this is my personal opinion, not the brewery I work for...

Personally I think most are missing the point here. Setting up any system besides a pure open market system will always favour one over another. The current system favours brewers over consumers. If this wasn't true then the macro & micro breweries wouldn't be fighting for status quo.

Allow us, with our money, to spend it where we will. (It's my money dammit!) The market will adjust accordingly. We may lose some brewers that don't adjust. That's unfortunate, but why should I be forced to prop up companies that cannot survive without government intervention?

Don't be so condescending, we know exactly what we're talking about and aren't "missing the point". I don't know why libertarians are so bloody convinced they've seen The Truth and the rest of us just don't get it. Most of the posters here have seen the craft scene come up from nothing over thbe past couple decades and, yeah, we have respect for the Ontario breweries that have made massive strides over the past 5 years. Don't sniff at us because we're concerned about local breweries that have become significant parts of our communities.

[icemachine]

I honestly can't believe that if we went to a hybrid system similar to BC, that there would be any less selection within the LCBO, and that OCB members for the most part would adapt and would offer a greater selection of styles year round. Ontario may not compare to New York, but is sure as hell should be able to outstrip BC

[cmadd]

I don't think it's a coincidence that we get monthly updates about what's coming to stores in BC on the front page of an Ontario beer website, and we rarely (never?) get the same for our own province.

[cmadd]

before I make a point I want to state that this is my personal opinion, not the brewery I work for...

Personally I think most are missing the point here. Setting up any system besides a pure open market system will always favour one over another. The current system favours brewers over consumers. If this wasn't true then the macro & micro breweries wouldn't be fighting for status quo.

Allow us, with our money, to spend it where we will. (It's my money dammit!) The market will adjust accordingly. We may lose some brewers that don't adjust. That's unfortunate, but why should I be forced to prop up companies that cannot survive without government intervention?

Don't be so condescending, we know exactly what we're talking about and aren't "missing the point". I don't know why libertarians are so bloody convinced they've seen The Truth and the rest of us just don't get it. Most of the posters here have seen the craft scene come up from nothing over thbe past couple decades and, yeah, we have respect for the Ontario breweries that have made massive strides over the past 5 years. Don't sniff at us because we're concerned about local breweries that have become significant parts of our communities.

I'm anything but a libertarian. I think some goods are best provided by the Gov't (health insurance, roads, etc.). But unless we're advocating communism some markets are going to private. Beer is so blatantly in that category that I can't believe we're even having this discussion. If it's the livelihood of people in your community that you feel sensitive about, then I understand. Then I won't push the point, because that is something worth being sensitive about.

But I want someone here to seriously argue why privatization will hurt the craft beer consumer in terms of selection and quality, because frankly that's what this forum seems to care the most about.

[Kel Varnsen]

I might be in the minority here. But considering I buy most of my beer from trips to the US and Vancouver, BC, I don't see this as a sacrifice. I see it as going from around 0 to maybe 10 good stores in the province. In any case, I imagine the LCBO and TBS wouldn't disappear.

I hadn't thought of the cost of distribution, but I imagine that would be absorbed into the price of the beer, which I've admitted would likely go up. Also, I was under the impression that small breweries still had to drive their beers to the LCBO. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can inform me as to the current state of distribution.

Except if there are only 10 stores in the province that sell a good selection of craft beer, how many brewers can those 10 stores support?
Plus if prices go up to support distrubution, the problem is beer is most people buy with disposable income, so if prices go up, then sales go down.

You're right New York and Ontario are different markets. Which one would be an apt comparison?

I don't think any US states would be a fair comparison with Ontario, mostly because interstate alcohol distrubution laws are way less strict in the US compared to interprovincial laws. And selling beer in corner stores won't change those laws. So yes you can have a huge beer store full of craft beer in a place like watertown ny which has like 30,000 people, because that store can easily fill their shelves with beer from California, or Michigan or Colorado with very little effort. If a store opened selling craft beer in even Toronto, how easy would it be for the owner to stock beers from Quebec or BC?

And on the flip side from the brewers point of view even if there are only 10 good stores in his state that sell his beer he is not stuck because he can sell his beer in pretty much any state that shows an interest in it. If there are only a handful of good craft beer stores in Ontario, a brewery like Black Oak doesn't really have the option to ship his beer to Quebec so it can be sold in depanneurs.

[grub]

I might be in the minority here. But considering I buy most of my beer from trips to the US and Vancouver, BC, I don't see this as a sacrifice. I see it as going from around 0 to maybe 10 good stores in the province. In any case, I imagine the LCBO and TBS wouldn't disappear.

I hadn't thought of the cost of distribution, but I imagine that would be absorbed into the price of the beer, which I've admitted would likely go up. Also, I was under the impression that small breweries still had to drive their beers to the LCBO. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can inform me as to the current state of distribution.

Except if there are only 10 stores in the province that sell a good selection of craft beer, how many brewers can those 10 stores support?

the fundamental flaw in that argument is that it assumes all the current methods of alcohol sales disappear overnight and are replaced by private/convenience stores. does anyone really think this will happen? i mean, maybe someday TBS or LCBO might get out of the retail game, but there's no way in hell we'd convince them to shutdown in favour of private stores. we're talking about MORE options for where to buy from, not less. sure, there might be 10 stellar private stores, and you might not have one in your neighbourhood, but there's still going to be TBS+LCBO.

Plus if prices go up to support distrubution, the problem is beer is most people buy with disposable income, so if prices go up, then sales go down.

who says they have to? they still have the existing LCBO+TBS distribution networks (an established cost we're already paying today). I'd be willing to be that if you told any of our local brewers that they can increase their sales volume by hiring another driver, they'd look at that as a profit rather than an expense. The existing market limits their sales options and sales volume. Opening up to private stores would give them increased options and increased sales.

[GregClow]

I don't think it's a coincidence that we get monthly updates about what's coming to stores in BC on the front page of an Ontario beer website, and we rarely (never?) get the same for our own province.

Not sure what that has to do with anything. It just happens that a Bar Towel regular who lives in BC offered to compile and post that info each month, but no-one is doing the same for Ontario.

If the suggestion is that BC has a more active craft beer scene than Ontario - well, in the several years I've been running Canadian Beer News, I've had 504 posts tagged "Ontario" and 357 tagged "BC". Part of that has to do with the fact that I live in Ontario, so I have a more direct connection to the breweries here. But I've also established email relationships with many of the breweries out there as well, so I'm getting pretty much all the news from the BC scene. And all in all, I think we've got more going on here.

But again, I'm not sure that point was of the original statement, so perhaps this doesn't have any relation to the conversation...

[cmadd]

I guess the point is it seems easier to compile regular lists of new beers that are commercially available at stores in BC than in Ontario. We get four influxes of a smattering of 15 seasonal products with the occasional OCB thing sneaking in.

But you may be right that there's a more active market here. Our market is much more bar oriented, one-off oriented, and event oriented. Why? Because we have no other choice. Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate the effort and talent that goes into the one-offs from Great Lakes and Amsterdam, but I don't think we'll lose them if we go to privatized system. I'm also not sure if their in that for the money.

[Kel Varnsen]

the fundamental flaw in that argument is that it assumes all the current methods of alcohol sales disappear overnight and are replaced by private/convenience stores. does anyone really think this will happen? i mean, maybe someday TBS or LCBO might get out of the retail game, but there's no way in hell we'd convince them to shutdown in favour of private stores. we're talking about MORE options for where to buy from, not less. sure, there might be 10 stellar private stores, and you might not have one in your neighbourhood, but there's still going to be TBS+LCBO.

I would be curious to see if this would happen. I mean even today most of the stuff at the LCBO for beer is products from the major brewers. It might not happen, but I can see a situation where if every corner store has coors light and canadian, that it might become more profitable for a bunch of LCBO locations to remove their beer sections and fill that shelf space up with flavoured vodka or something.

I would be more curious to see how the beer store reacts. I mean like others have said most corner stores would be full of products owned by the owners of the beer stores. That in turn would mean TBS revenues would probably go down. So would a bunch of beer stores have to close, since if the owners are already making money putting their products in other stores for other people to sell (and TBS revenues are down) what motivation is there for them to operate huge stores and pay things like rent and salaries?

[JerCraigs]

But I want someone here to seriously argue why privatization will hurt the craft beer consumer in terms of selection and quality, because frankly that's what this forum seems to care the most about.

Have people not already done that? No one can fully answer that question with out knowing what specific form of "privatization" we are talking about. It is not inherently good or bad, it will have mixed outcomes. Not to pick on Sierra Nevada, but I would rather be drinking a homegrown hoppy pale ale then something shipped halfway across the continent, but it would also be nice to have the option for both...

But you may be right that there's a more active market here. Our market is much more bar oriented, one-off oriented, and event oriented. Why? Because we have no other choice. Don't get me wrong. I really appreciate the effort and talent that goes into the one-offs from Great Lakes and Amsterdam, but I don't think we'll lose them if we go to privatized system.

You can't lose what you don't have... Most places in Ontario already don't have access to most of these one-offs. The fact that they are not being brewed in production sized batches is the simple explanation for that. The more complicated question is why aren't the breweries brewing production sized batches? Clearly they don't think they can sell them for a variety of reasons (demand, outlets, etc.)

I think the other point that just changing the retail face of things is not necessarily enough is also interesting. The fact that Alaska has a better year round selection of Unibroue and DDC than Ontario does right now is kind of sad. Would privatizing retail alone be enough to change that?

[esprit]

I am intrigued...where can you buy this line of beers in Ontario?

[Belgian]

The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

It's funny, one gas station on Delaware sells growler fills of top-notch USA craft brew. It's like bottles are not even a question. Imagine that here - buying a six of great IPA or Porter on the same stop as filling the gas tank - it's so effortless and doesn't require wasting gas driving to the LCBO.

[dale cannon]

Imagine that here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY

They may say you're a dreamer. But you're not the only one.

[GregClow]

It's funny, one gas station on Delaware sells growler fills of top-notch USA craft brew.

A lot more than just one gas station in NY selling growler fills, actually...

http://craftbeerexchange.wordpress.com/

[icemachine]

It's funny, one gas station on Delaware sells growler fills of top-notch USA craft brew.

A lot more than just one gas station in NY selling growler fills, actually...

http://craftbeerexchange.wordpress.com/

But nobody in Ontario would want that