Recycling/Returning

scott097 · Post by **scott097** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:55 pm

So, we can't return beer bottles, or any bottle to the LCBO for that matter, and get any money back. I've got a ton of bottles from the LCBO and wherever else I've bought beer from or received from friends travelling, but they all go into the recycle bin. The last time I went to the Beer Store, the girl there told me I couldn't return the Unibroue Ephemere collections because they don't carry it (even though they do.) This time I've got a bunch of Niagara Apple Ale and St. Ambroise Apricot bottles... Am I going to get them thrown back at me if they look in the boxes as they've been known to do to me in the past, just because they don't carry that product?
The Beer Store takes back other Niagara Brewing Co. bottles, why shouldn't they take back bottles of Apple Ale? As long as it's a standard twist off brown bottle, shouldn't the Beer Store take them all?
What if all the labels were peeled off, they wouldn't know the difference!
When I get my ten cents per bottle, what does the Beer Store charge the breweries to get the bottles back? Anything?
When I throw all these bottles (non twist off capped bottles) that I get at the LCBO in the blue box, the City of Mississauga is basically paying to pick up their returns, and then recycle them. The Beer Store is mostly doing their part, but the LCBO doesn't have to do anything. Does any of this make sense?

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:31 pm

While I don't entirely dissagree with you there's one detail you're overlooking. The Beer Store charges a deposit on the bottles it sells, the LCBO does not. So if I buy 6 St.Ambroise Pale Ale from the BS and then 6 St.Ambroise Apricot at the LCBO it doesn't matter to the BS that they are the same bottle from the same brewery, it only matters whether you paid them the deposit to take it back. Yes, they would all end up going back to the same place if the BS took them but they shouldn't have to pay you for bottles they didn't sell.

It would be easier if there was a deposit on all bottles (pop, milk, beer, liquor) and that refund could be obtained at either the point of purchase or at a licensed recycling depot. Vancouver has this system in place however they have only one outlet for both beer and liquor which makes collection much easier. The recycling centers there will take back bottles and cans, regardless of their origin (U.S. bottles are accepted) but they only offer 50% refund to cover their costs.

Anyway I have no problem putting LCBO bottles into my recycling bin here for two reasons; 1) I didn't pay a deposit so I'm not losing anything 2) The bottles end up being recycled rather than going to landfill which is the rationale for why they started charging deposits and giving refunds in the first place.

Truth is I put all my beer bottles in the Blue box wherever they came from. Refundable ones never end up being picked up as there are always adventurous souls in my neighborhood who pick them out so they can refund them.

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-09-20 17:36 ]

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:34 pm

Jon:
I believe that the LCBO does charge a deposit on any product that is also sold through BRI with the intent that empties will be returned to The Beer Store.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:41 pm

I am aware that the LCBO charges a deposit on beers also available at the Beer Store (I.E. Blue or even St.Ambroise)...in other words dual listed beers. If they didn't then the price would be different between the two outlets and it isn't. However, I'm unaware that a deposit is being charged on other beers like St.Peter's or Rogue as the Beer Store isn't able (or willing) to take them back. If there is a hidden deposit charge being levied then I will be very surprised and a little shocked...if that's the case then YES INDEED the LCBO should be providing people with a mechanism to return the bottles for that deposit.

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-09-20 17:42 ]

Mississauga Matt · Post by **Mississauga Matt** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:36 pm

There was some discussion in the provincial legislature a while back regarding the LCBO and non-returnable bottles. The LCBO evidently contributes some money to the recovery of bottles through the blue box program, but many municipalities are pissed because the contribution falls significantly short of what it costs them to pick up and recycle bottles. Not all of course come from the LCBO. And keep in mind that not all bottles from the blue box are successfully recycled.

I always put out-of-province beers in with local beers, as long as they have the same shape. I just take off the label and collects me money ...

scott097 · Post by **scott097** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:38 pm

The thing I was most wondering about, is why should the City of Mississauga have to pay for recycling wine bottles and non twist cap beer bottles when the Beer Store is doing their part to reuse the bottles?
The price for bottled beer is the same for dual listed products. The LCBO is just pocketing the deposits, and the city is paying for a major part of the recycling costs. I bet it's cheaper to reuse than to recycle all those bottles. Understandably, there's no point in returning bottles that come from over seas, but for local wineries, wouldn't they rather get their bottles back instead of having to buy new ones?
Also, I just took back the empties, including a 12pack of Magnotta IPA bottles, which neither the LCBO or BS supplies, and they took them without a problem. There goes $1.20 out of the Beer Store's pocket. Not much, but are they selling them back to the Breweries for say, 15 cents? Otherwise why did they take them?

Rob Creighton · Post by **Rob Creighton** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:48 am

This topic revolves around a number of semi urban myths that it would be truly interesting to know the real numbers about. It is similar to knowing that Molson at one point (recently) put out only a dozen worts from their brewhouse yet had 48 labels coming off the bottle lines.
My concern here is our devotion to recycling expressed in the comment;
"The bottles end up being recycled rather than going to landfill which is the rationale for why they started charging deposits and giving refunds in the first place."
I was accosted on New Years eve by a manager of a landfill site near Cornwall with the fact that no brown glass is recycled in Ontario as his site receives constant loads from Toronto. In his mind the sheer volume precludes the possibility of allowing for any recycling. I replied with the fact that I have seen cull glass being added to kilns in small quantities but the reality is that any slight concern over contamination (ceramics) means that a huge amount will be rejected. Also, the industry standard bottle twist off has razor threads which are extremely sensitive to damage and this means Molbatt rejects millions of bottles with their very sophisticated detectors. The volume, in my mind, probably exceeds demand for cull glass. Is their anybody on the forum that works in the glass trade and can give us any kind of accurate perspective on this because perspective is what this is all about? If you work for The Beer Store please do not respond because I do not need any more propoganda.
Also, (yes I'm afraid the tirade continues), why would any winery want to wash or have bottles washed for them? Wine is bottled in relatively small quantities (even by Vincorp) and relies solely on image. Sure, I want to pay for a VQA wine in a scuffed bottle and bring dirty, bacteria contaminated glass into my plant as well as the added administration costs of dealing with it. And I'ld be thrilled to pay for a huge energy sucking, labour driven machine to marginally reduce my overall package cost.
No, I'm convinced that any enlightening conversation on this topic requires a lot of numbers that none of the participants in the game really want to release.

Mississauga Matt · Post by **Mississauga Matt** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:24 am

Here are a couple of articles on the issue:

http://www.mikecolle.com/Frames/News/20 ... 0331_3.htm

http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_11.0 ... rbage.html

Rubaiyat · Post by **Rubaiyat** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:06 pm

There is a small $ component in EVERY SINGLE bottle of wine or beer or spirits you buy at the LCBO that is collected on behalf of the environment, and the cost of recycling, etc.

Paul

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:37 pm

but Paul, that money goes into the government's general revenues and is not specifically returned to municipalities to cover recycling costs and it has always been a bone of contention whenever cities raise the prospect of demanding the LCBO charge a deposit on all bottles....funny, no one ever demands that pickle producers have a deposit on their jars...

Rob Creighton · Post by **Rob Creighton** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:45 pm

As the articles above suggest, how can any collected funds be applied to the environment or recycling if it is going into the general tax pool? As usual, we assume our elected officials are doing the "right thing". Yea right. The system has no legitimate direction and absolutely no accountibility. I believe that it is likely that our perception of recycling in Ontario is a long way from reality.
The need is for a mandatory deposit system on all beverage containers and an outright ban on access to landfills. The onus on creating end markets for collected containers must be shared by industry and end users. The tax payer should not be involved (our politicians cannot be trusted).

Rubaiyat · Post by **Rubaiyat** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:55 pm

I quote from the Toronto Star article linked above. Newspapers never lie do they ...

Currently, municipal taxpayers pay about $62 million a year to fund the Blue Box system, and industry kicks in a little more. Since 1998, the LCBO has contributed $16 million in direct funding to the municipalities to help with Blue Box recycling costs, as has the soft drink industry through an initial contribution in capital funding of $20 million over a four-year period (1986-1989) and $4 million per year thereafter ...

... the new funding formula, expected to kick in May 1, will require industry to fund approximately $28 million per year, and the LCBO will contribute an extra $5 million per year, amounting to about approximately 50 per cent of the total costs of recycling.

Having said this I have no idea how this figure equates to the actual $ collected on each bottle but clearly there is SOME "direct" compensation by the LCBO to help pay for the recycling expenses.

Finally, the bottles returned to the Beer Store (you don't HAVE to return them after all) actually benefit the beer companies (which own the Beer Store), as I understand it. It costs them less to run them through the wash than to buy new ones (and still have to wash them before use) each time, etc., etc. This may not apply to all breweries big and small (I'm thinking the smaller ones - not, actually) so be kind ...

All the different, odd sized bottles at the LCBO could not realistically be standardized across the board. That's the price we pay (is it fiscal or environmental ...) for having a wide range of imported goods from around the globe.

Paul

[ This Message was edited by: Rubaiyat on 2003-09-23 00:12 ]