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Big bottles equals Wines...?????

Discuss beer or anything else that comes to mind in here.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Bytowner wrote:Being my typical curmudgeonly self, I actually kinda agree that it's about the wine-fication of beer. I still think there's a bit of an insecurity in craft beer and a weird need to prove that beer is just as sophisticated as wine...
Well in our past century of Western culture over here, beer has become more identified with the working-class drinker, and at the same time wine been given a bit of a false pedestal of the 'nouveau riche' and status-seeking crowds.

This is why hardcore Bud Light drinkers will scoff at your Stone IPA ('too fancy') while many wine drinkers will balk at a tetra pack or a screw-cap ('not fancy enough.') We have created these false stigmas to overcome - and I think we are now in the process of successfully doing just that. It's happening organically both in a natural shift of people's interest, and also with the emergence of new generations of younger adults that naturally adapt to the new and interesting (particularly the rapid-fire exciting developments in craft beer, although the wine industry too has been developing in impressive leaps and bounds.)

It's good all around I think. Better beverages + less attitude = WIN.
In Beerum Veritas

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Post by midlife crisis »

Killing myself laughing at Rob C's post.

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Post by El Pinguino »

+1
midlife crisis wrote:Killing myself laughing at Rob C's post.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Ratebeer Weekly email newsletter wrote:THE NEW YORK TIMES CRAFT-BEER KERFUFFLE
And My Response to Bad Beer Writing


Last week, The New York Times published a concerning article by Clay Risen on what was ultimately billed as the "wine-ification" <shudder> of beer, which took a pretty skewed look at something that's actually worth talking about: beer in bigger bottles. Now, I try to be patient in reacting to these things, for two reasons: (1) RateBeer Weekly looks a bit funny in all CAPS, and (2) seasoned veterans like Jay Brooks and Garrett Oliver are better at launching a frontal assault. All three preceding links are worth a read. For price perspectives on larger-format bottles, we've already covered this issue a bit in a previous edition of RateBeer Weekly.

The briefest of summaries: Clay Risen frames larger-format craft bottles as the beer industry striving to be more like wine, with customers and retailers balking. Jay and Garrett rightfully call out the arrogant wine-y tone, the lopsided rhetoric, and some pretty iffy details (of which there aren’t many to begin with). And Michael Tonsmeire, quoted in the original article, brings us back to the elephant in the room: We still really do need to talk about larger-format bottles. I'll dig into that later.

As someone who cares deeply about the quality of beer writing in this country, right now I'm most concerned about how coverage like this sees the light of day.

Key points: (1) It's not like Clay Risen can't write savvy beer content. I've enjoyed his work at The Atlantic in the past. (2) As someone who speaks to brewers on an almost-daily basis at this point, I know that many really do use larger formats to get the most $ per ounce for their beer, but it's not because they're actively trying to screw people or (facepalm) emulate wine. It's because, (3) contrary to the NYT article, restaurants and high-end consumers are buying the shit out of those beers. And those higher price points also allow smaller brewers (artists, I would argue) to make a living without going big. We choose whether or not to support them.

That's what that article should have been about. And that, I think, is the only way I can make sense of this whole thing, by asking: What does respectable coverage of this topic look like? I think I have a general inkling. It probably would have teased out the real dynamic at play here: a burgeoning artisanal industry still struggling to figure out its internal price points and its steady-state values. It would allow for more than a single viewpoint (without all the hasty generalizations). It would do the legwork of actual research. It wouldn't use 14 mentions of the word "wine" as a contextual crutch. It wouldn't conflate 22oz bombers with corked-and-caged 750s (nor would it completely thumb its nose at the existence of Belgian beer culture). Most crucially, it most certainly would not presume that NYT is the place for a part-time beer writer to think that he understands these issues so clearly that he can stop doing basic journalism.

Here's the thing: Part of me believes that Risen truly intended this article to be in defense of beer culture, a warning shot against what he interprets as bad habits. He's in a position to do such things, to have that sort of impact. Every part of me wishes he'd do a better job.

–Ken Weaver (RB: kmweaver)
Very clearly put!

Re: "I know that many really do use larger formats to get the most $ per ounce for their beer -It's because - restaurants and high-end consumers are buying the shit out of those beers. And those higher price points also allow smaller brewers (artists, I would argue) to make a living without going big. We choose whether or not to support them. "

- it's still kind of hollow to sell a very regular-value beer for an inflated price, solely because it's in a large bottle . I think the USA brewers at this time still have a firmer grasp on reality about when a beer is remarkable enough to charge more for VS when only the serving size is bigger.
What I'm saying is the packaging is still in itself no excuse to get carried away with gouging on prices. At least for the beer dollar I vote with. The whole 'making a living' justification still has to carry substance in how good the beer is, or the better-value products will kill them.
In Beerum Veritas

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Post by Belgian »

Ratebeer Weekly email newsletter wrote:THE NEW YORK TIMES CRAFT-BEER KERFUFFLE
And My Response to Bad Beer Writing


Last week, The New York Times published a concerning article by Clay Risen on what was ultimately billed as the "wine-ification" <shudder> of beer, which took a pretty skewed look at something that's actually worth talking about: beer in bigger bottles. Now, I try to be patient in reacting to these things, for two reasons: (1) RateBeer Weekly looks a bit funny in all CAPS, and (2) seasoned veterans like Jay Brooks and Garrett Oliver are better at launching a frontal assault. All three preceding links are worth a read. For price perspectives on larger-format bottles, we've already covered this issue a bit in a previous edition of RateBeer Weekly.

The briefest of summaries: Clay Risen frames larger-format craft bottles as the beer industry striving to be more like wine, with customers and retailers balking. Jay and Garrett rightfully call out the arrogant wine-y tone, the lopsided rhetoric, and some pretty iffy details (of which there aren’t many to begin with). And Michael Tonsmeire, quoted in the original article, brings us back to the elephant in the room: We still really do need to talk about larger-format bottles. I'll dig into that later.

As someone who cares deeply about the quality of beer writing in this country, right now I'm most concerned about how coverage like this sees the light of day.

Key points: (1) It's not like Clay Risen can't write savvy beer content. I've enjoyed his work at The Atlantic in the past. (2) As someone who speaks to brewers on an almost-daily basis at this point, I know that many really do use larger formats to get the most $ per ounce for their beer, but it's not because they're actively trying to screw people or (facepalm) emulate wine. It's because, (3) contrary to the NYT article, restaurants and high-end consumers are buying the shit out of those beers. And those higher price points also allow smaller brewers (artists, I would argue) to make a living without going big. We choose whether or not to support them.

That's what that article should have been about. And that, I think, is the only way I can make sense of this whole thing, by asking: What does respectable coverage of this topic look like? I think I have a general inkling. It probably would have teased out the real dynamic at play here: a burgeoning artisanal industry still struggling to figure out its internal price points and its steady-state values. It would allow for more than a single viewpoint (without all the hasty generalizations). It would do the legwork of actual research. It wouldn't use 14 mentions of the word "wine" as a contextual crutch. It wouldn't conflate 22oz bombers with corked-and-caged 750s (nor would it completely thumb its nose at the existence of Belgian beer culture). Most crucially, it most certainly would not presume that NYT is the place for a part-time beer writer to think that he understands these issues so clearly that he can stop doing basic journalism.

Here's the thing: Part of me believes that Risen truly intended this article to be in defense of beer culture, a warning shot against what he interprets as bad habits. He's in a position to do such things, to have that sort of impact. Every part of me wishes he'd do a better job.

–Ken Weaver (RB: kmweaver)
Very clearly put!

Re: "I know that many really do use larger formats to get the most $ per ounce for their beer -It's because - restaurants and high-end consumers are buying the shit out of those beers. And those higher price points also allow smaller brewers (artists, I would argue) to make a living without going big. We choose whether or not to support them. "

- it's still kind of hollow to sell a very regular-value beer for an inflated price, solely because it's in a large bottle . I think the USA brewers at this time still have a firmer grasp on reality about when a beer is remarkable enough to charge more for VS when only the serving size is bigger.
What I'm saying is the packaging is still in itself no excuse to get carried away with gouging on prices. At least for the beer dollar I vote with. The whole 'making a living' justification still has to carry substance in how good the beer is, or the better-value products will edge them out with price/value advantage and take away sales.
In Beerum Veritas

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Post by Rob Creighton »

Belgian wrote:
- it's still kind of hollow to sell a very regular-value beer for an inflated price, solely because it's in a large bottle . I think the USA brewers at this time still have a firmer grasp on reality about when a beer is remarkable enough to charge more for VS when only the serving size is bigger.
What I'm saying is the packaging is still in itself no excuse to get carried away with gouging on prices. At least for the beer dollar I vote with. The whole 'making a living' justification still has to carry substance in how good the beer is, or the better-value products will edge them out with price/value advantage and take away sales.
Kinda like Bud,Blue & Canadian being considered 'premium' because they are the biggest selling

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Post by JasonTremblay »

Has anyone else read Calagione's Brewing Up a Business?

He goes into some detail about how DFH used heavy stock for its bottle labels to make the bottles seem more wine-y. That's right, when DFH aimed its sights north of Bud, one of their targets was wine drinkers who scoffed at cans and cheap-looking 6-packs.

I know what Oliver's getting at (he's also made a point in the past that champagne makers emulated the bottle-conditioned beers of near-ish Belgium to elevate an otherwise dry and not-so-tasty wine), but I think he's glossing over some contradictory facts.

IME, I think it's fairer to say that vintners and brewers (even distillers) have been ripping each other off for centuries. In the most current game of cat and mouse, we have NA brewers putting in orders for champagne bottles ... whose origins date to champagne makers beerifying wine.

Jason

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Post by jrenihan »

JasonTremblay wrote: I know what Oliver's getting at (he's also made a point in the past that champagne makers emulated the bottle-conditioned beers of near-ish Belgium to elevate an otherwise dry and not-so-tasty wine), but I think he's glossing over some contradictory facts.
That's very interesting about the origins of Champagne- never heard that. Is the article you are referring to online anywhere?

I for one don't get to excised by this debate, but there is certainly one way in which I would like beer to become more like wine: it would be great if nice restaurants ensured that they carried some decent beers along with their wine lists. The (perhaps unrefective) thought that beer is not a drink for sophisticated dining is unfortunate. If more places could take after Grammercy Tavern (even in a slight way), that would be swell.

Ren

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Post by JasonTremblay »

jrenihan wrote:That's very interesting about the origins of Champagne- never heard that. Is the article you are referring to online anywhere?
I think he uses it as a pretty standard quip in interviews and talks -- here's one example: http://www.ticketsarasota.com/2011-11-0 ... n-brewery/

At a Master Brewers Conference 2 or 3 years ago, I saw him and Chris White (of White Labs fame) give a talk about bottle conditioning where he went a little more in-depth with his spiel about champagne. There might also be something about in the Enormous Oxford Compendium of All Things Beer.

A quick poke through Wikipedia has info about the history of sparkling wine, but the turning point seems to be the introduction of coal-fired glass bottles from England in the 18th C. -- apparently French bottles tended to explode under pressure. And, with work originally done by Louis Pasteur for English brewers, champagne makers learned to control the process of bottle refermentation in the 19th C..

And, lest we forget, Ontario has seen a lot of growth in the use of wine barrels for beer in the last 15 months. And we have beer somelliers.

There's been a lot of cross-pollination between beer and wine-making.

Jason

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Post by Tapsucker »

OK, so here is my wish list:

- More good beer in cans. Screw the downmarket image; cans are good storage for beer.

- Restaurants with good wine lists should also have good beer lists. Even more important, if you are going to trumpet local ingredients or local bakers, why can't you serve local beers? Any chef that has taken the time to know their craft and ingredients should know better. Those that haven't are not worth the prices they charge, caviar foam, calves brains or otherwise...

- Cheap corporate beer. Isn't it time they moved to tetra packs or wine bag/box format? Seriously, will their customer care?

- On the other extreme, single serving wine. This exists in Europe, but is hardly seen here. This is possibly because wine and beer are not sold like other beverages in Canada, but it's time. In Europe you might find yourself buying a beer or single serving wine with your street food. Oh yeah, we don't really do street food either...

- Cask wine in bars. It's starting to show up here and it's pretty big in the US. Originally, like bag/box was a cheap way to serve low grade product. But decent wines are catching on in this format. Eventually the snobbery will drop off and the more practical vessels will catch on.

It's only packaging folks!

Imagine the outcry when bottles were introduced; what will happen to all the coopers and potters? Shame!
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Post by Belgian »

Let's just say beer and wine have shared complimentary evolutions as an historical beverage - and that any similarity or imitation of each other is both quite natural & incidentally unimportant.

I mean do we get bent out of shape if we enjoy both chili sauce and ketchup, and then see a brand of chili ketchup? Madness.
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Post by ErkLR »

Tapsucker wrote: - Cheap corporate beer. Isn't it time they moved to tetra packs or wine bag/box format? Seriously, will their customer care?
Hehehe, "I'm going to the store to get a bag of Molson!" But the carbonation might be a problem. I was kind of surprised when bubbas didn't catch on, but I think their main problem was that you got mostly foam for the first couple glasses you poured.

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Post by Tapsucker »

ErkLR wrote:
Tapsucker wrote: - Cheap corporate beer. Isn't it time they moved to tetra packs or wine bag/box format? Seriously, will their customer care?
Hehehe, "I'm going to the store to get a bag of Molson!" But the carbonation might be a problem. I was kind of surprised when bubbas didn't catch on, but I think their main problem was that you got mostly foam for the first couple glasses you poured.
Glasses? We don't pour into no stinking glasses! What kind of a snob are you? :lol:
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Post by icemachine »

ErkLR wrote:
Tapsucker wrote: - Cheap corporate beer. Isn't it time they moved to tetra packs or wine bag/box format? Seriously, will their customer care?
Hehehe, "I'm going to the store to get a bag of Molson!" But the carbonation might be a problem. I was kind of surprised when bubbas didn't catch on, but I think their main problem was that you got mostly foam for the first couple glasses you poured.
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Post by Torontoblue »

Tapsucker wrote:OK, so here is my wish list:

- On the other extreme, single serving wine. This exists in Europe, but is hardly seen here. This is possibly because wine and beer are not sold like other beverages in Canada, but it's time. In Europe you might find yourself buying a beer or single serving wine with your street food. Oh yeah, we don't really do street food either...

It's only packaging folks!
The single serving size bottle, 187.5ml is actually deemed an illegal size to sell to the public by the liquor boards; and it can't even be offered as an on-pack size, either! It can only be sold to licensed establishments & sports arena's. Just another strange ruling by the all Governing boards. I don't see what harm this serving size can do to the mass public?

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