Two new arrivals at Smokeless:
- Montagnarde from Brasserie de l'Abbaye des Rocs
- Wittekerke from Bavik
Enjoy,
Paul
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Hallowe'en Arrivals at Smokeless Joe
I've had both. The Montagnarde is a decent strong Belgian ale but the Wittekerke is far from being an "excellent" wheat beer, it's passable but not worth wasting dollars on as there are far better Belgian wheat beers out there and I'd opt for a Hoegaarden or a Brussels White any day over this one. http://www.beeradvocate.com rates it 3.61 out of 5 and 38th out of 54 beers in the style and they're on the mark as far as I'm concerned.
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dhurtubise
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:00 pm
Wittekerke is one of the better ranked wit biers in Belgium. Pick up a copy of Tim Webb's book - Good Beer Guide to Belgium and Holland if my reference is not sufficient for you. The Wittekerke sample I had this summer was excellent and I will stand by that.
In general, I have found that ratebeer and beer advocate ratings present overall weak evaluations of light, delicate beers such as witbier, helles, dortmunder, vienna and a variety of pils. The ratings on those sites are more suitable predictors of big, or extravagant beers (high gravity, high alcohol, high bitterness etc.)
As a general rule (Hoegaarden seems to be a strange exception) witbier are far better in Belgium, close to the breweries, than the samples you can buy here. Remember that Witbier tends to be best when it is fresh. It is a fragile, delicate beer. The spices are ephemeral, that is that they are short lived and fade quickly (the same way dry hopping fades rather quickly with age), thus the character that coriander, orange peels and a variety of other spices lend to the beers are often absent or weak in old bottles whereas they could have predominated the flavour profile in a fresh one. Unfortunately, the same pattern of deterioration is fated for that beautiful light refreshing tartness derived by the unmalted wheat used in 45-60% of the grain bill. It logically follows that since the beer's flavour is predominated by unmalted wheat and its synergy with the spices and both of these are freshness sensitive, if you bought a bottle in North America, chances are it was past it's prime. On that note, I've always wondered how Hoegaarden maintains it's fresh character....
Now on the note of Hoegaarden and Brussels White: Although I like both the beers and believe them to be good examples of the style, there are several witbier I had this summer that greatly surpass them. Blanche de Namur, Blanche de Saisis, Blanche de Poiluchette and especially Blanche de Honnelles (Abey de Rocs.. please bring this in) were outstanding beers. Wittekerke was a notch lower but certainly worth buying and spending $ on, especially if you like witbier.
In general, I have found that ratebeer and beer advocate ratings present overall weak evaluations of light, delicate beers such as witbier, helles, dortmunder, vienna and a variety of pils. The ratings on those sites are more suitable predictors of big, or extravagant beers (high gravity, high alcohol, high bitterness etc.)
As a general rule (Hoegaarden seems to be a strange exception) witbier are far better in Belgium, close to the breweries, than the samples you can buy here. Remember that Witbier tends to be best when it is fresh. It is a fragile, delicate beer. The spices are ephemeral, that is that they are short lived and fade quickly (the same way dry hopping fades rather quickly with age), thus the character that coriander, orange peels and a variety of other spices lend to the beers are often absent or weak in old bottles whereas they could have predominated the flavour profile in a fresh one. Unfortunately, the same pattern of deterioration is fated for that beautiful light refreshing tartness derived by the unmalted wheat used in 45-60% of the grain bill. It logically follows that since the beer's flavour is predominated by unmalted wheat and its synergy with the spices and both of these are freshness sensitive, if you bought a bottle in North America, chances are it was past it's prime. On that note, I've always wondered how Hoegaarden maintains it's fresh character....
Now on the note of Hoegaarden and Brussels White: Although I like both the beers and believe them to be good examples of the style, there are several witbier I had this summer that greatly surpass them. Blanche de Namur, Blanche de Saisis, Blanche de Poiluchette and especially Blanche de Honnelles (Abey de Rocs.. please bring this in) were outstanding beers. Wittekerke was a notch lower but certainly worth buying and spending $ on, especially if you like witbier.
If it's one of the better ranked wit beers in Belgium then why do you refer to a British beer writer who has sold about a total of 4 books in North America (I guess you've got one of them) to back up your contention. The fact is Wittekerke is not widely available or known in Belgium as it's a small regional brand. I've travelled all over Belgium and only saw it in a handful of supermarkets. You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I still think it's mediocre and the average opinion of the 52 people who rated it on Beer Advocate is the same so Tim Webb and you can both go on enjoying this elixir but I'll pass and would recommend that wit bier lovers do the same. Life' too short to drink mediocre beer! Actually, with all this attention everyone wlll probably be running to Smokeless to try it and find out which of us is right...let's hear your opinions.
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dhurtubise
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:00 pm
[/quote]why do you refer to a British beer writer who has sold about a total of 4 books in North America [/quote]
Because his book is pretty much universally recognized as the reference of choice for belgian beers, especially amongst tavellers. You probably should know that if you tavelled as a beer tourist in Belgium since that book is as much a required travel companion as a recent copy of the Rough Guide or The Lonely Planet.
[/quote]
The fact is Wittekerke is not widely available or known in Belgium as it's a small regional brand.
[/quote]
There are countless of tremendous beers in Belgium that fit that description. That description is a very poor predictor of a beer's quality, value or virtue. (Here also, read Scotch Irish and a host of other regional brands otherwise known as micros in Ontario).
[/quote]
I've travelled all over Belgium and only saw it in a handful of supermarkets.
[/quote]
Pretty much only the most commercial beers and the regional fare are found in the supermarkets and corner stores in Belgium. You should have been targetting serious beer speciallist shops if you wanted to find the best beers of Belgium since many of them are from small regional breweries. The fact that you have come back from Belgium only to laud Hoegaarden and Brussels White, two beers that have been available in Ontario over the past four-five years leads me to believe that you probably didn't drink all that much wit during your extensive travels in Belgium.
[/quote]
You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I still think it's mediocre and the average opinion of the 52 people who rated it on Beer Advocate is the same
[/quote]
Fine... see my previous post about that.
[/quote]
so Tim Webb and you can both go on enjoying this elixir but I'll pass and would recommend that wit bier lovers do the same. Life' too short to drink mediocre beer! Actually, with all this attention everyone wlll probably be running to Smokeless to try it and find out which of us is right...let's hear your opinions.
[/quote]
I really hope you have been responsible and really tried the beer more than once. I am convinced that very few people on this site who try Wittekerke will come back with the same benign opinion that it is a mediocre product. Frankly if it were mediocre it would not be able to survive in Belgium's intensely competitive beer market.
Witbier is a truly fragile, delicate style. Even in Belgium I frequently found witbier in bottles that was past it's prime.
Because his book is pretty much universally recognized as the reference of choice for belgian beers, especially amongst tavellers. You probably should know that if you tavelled as a beer tourist in Belgium since that book is as much a required travel companion as a recent copy of the Rough Guide or The Lonely Planet.
[/quote]
The fact is Wittekerke is not widely available or known in Belgium as it's a small regional brand.
[/quote]
There are countless of tremendous beers in Belgium that fit that description. That description is a very poor predictor of a beer's quality, value or virtue. (Here also, read Scotch Irish and a host of other regional brands otherwise known as micros in Ontario).
[/quote]
I've travelled all over Belgium and only saw it in a handful of supermarkets.
[/quote]
Pretty much only the most commercial beers and the regional fare are found in the supermarkets and corner stores in Belgium. You should have been targetting serious beer speciallist shops if you wanted to find the best beers of Belgium since many of them are from small regional breweries. The fact that you have come back from Belgium only to laud Hoegaarden and Brussels White, two beers that have been available in Ontario over the past four-five years leads me to believe that you probably didn't drink all that much wit during your extensive travels in Belgium.
[/quote]
You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I still think it's mediocre and the average opinion of the 52 people who rated it on Beer Advocate is the same
[/quote]
Fine... see my previous post about that.
[/quote]
so Tim Webb and you can both go on enjoying this elixir but I'll pass and would recommend that wit bier lovers do the same. Life' too short to drink mediocre beer! Actually, with all this attention everyone wlll probably be running to Smokeless to try it and find out which of us is right...let's hear your opinions.
[/quote]
I really hope you have been responsible and really tried the beer more than once. I am convinced that very few people on this site who try Wittekerke will come back with the same benign opinion that it is a mediocre product. Frankly if it were mediocre it would not be able to survive in Belgium's intensely competitive beer market.
Witbier is a truly fragile, delicate style. Even in Belgium I frequently found witbier in bottles that was past it's prime.
That is true, Bavik rates a 3.18 on Ratebeer vs. a 3.69 for Hooegarden, 3.71 for Allagash White. Dieu du Ciel Première Neige 3.6, Victory Whirlwind Witbier 3.57In general, I have found that ratebeer and beer advocate ratings present overall weak evaluations of light, delicate beers such as witbier, helles, dortmunder, vienna and a variety of pils. The ratings on those sites are more suitable predictors of big, or extravagant beers (high gravity, high alcohol, high bitterness etc.)
Blanche de Chambly 3.33
That last one is interesting since I like DdC a lot and Bavik is relatively close in score to that.
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Josh Oakes
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borderline_alcoholic
- Posts: 378
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Am I? Sorry about that.On 2003-11-05 09:26, bulba wrote:
Man, bofderline, you're taking this one very seriously.
Hee hee. Thanks to Al for pointing out my complete lack of involvement in this thread. Actually, I have not tried the Wittekerke yet either, so cannot really comment on its merits one way or the other. I'll probably give it a try at some point to see what it is like. In the meantime, I am following your comments with interest.
I would, however, echo dhurtubise's general point that a beer not being widely available in bars and supermarkets has very little bearing on whether or not it is any good, the Ontario scene being a case in point. There are plenty of small regional breweries in the world who produce excellent beers and they should not be overlooked. Indeed, most of my favourite beers fall into this category.
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borderline_alcoholic
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- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:00 pm
Um, if it is the 5th best Belgian Wit beer, then I would consider that pretty mind-blowing. What are the other 3 which better it in your estimation (I assume that the Blanche de Bruges is one of them).On 2003-11-05 11:08, Josh Oakes wrote:
I have it 5th amongst Belgian examples, 23rd overall. Not bad beer, but not mind-blowing. I still want my Blanche de Bruges back in Canada.
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Josh Oakes
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4th best wit in Belgium...oops (of the ones I've had - I missed some of the ones hurtubise cited). That's 23rd amongst witbiers, not all beers.On 2003-11-05 11:41, borderline_alcoholic wrote:Um, if it is the 5th best Belgian Wit beer, then I would consider that pretty mind-blowing. What are the other 3 which better it in your estimation (I assume that the Blanche de Bruges is one of them).On 2003-11-05 11:08, Josh Oakes wrote:
I have it 5th amongst Belgian examples, 23rd overall. Not bad beer, but not mind-blowing. I still want my Blanche de Bruges back in Canada.
For the record, in addition to draught Hoegaarden, which I've generally enjoyed, I'd take Vuuve as well.
So yeah, though the world of witbiers has many better ones, I reckon this is one of the better Belgian examples I've had.
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borderline_alcoholic
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- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:00 pm
No, you rated it as 5th best Belgian witbier. I asked what the other 3 were as you had already mentioned Blanche De Bruges. So there is still 1 remaining. Sorry for being confusing in my reply.
I am just trying to determine your leanings in rating this style as it better informs me as to how the Wittekerke will suit me or otherwise. Also, how extensively have you pursued Belgian witbiers? Your stated rating of 5th amongst Belgian examples led me to infer that you have tried a very extensive range of them.
I have only a limited experience with Belgian witbiers as, while I appreciate them, they are not my favourite style and while there I tended to pursue other beers. (And I was not there as a beer tourist anyway.) Of the ones listed in this thread, I seem to recall enjoying the Blanche de Saisis and Blanche de Honnelles. Hoegaarden is okay. I know that I have tried Blanche de Bruges too, but I just cannot remember it - obviously it was a very good night.
Anyway, if nothing else, I think that the Wittekerke is probably worth sampling while it is here, so I'll try to get down to Joe's sometime within the next week.
I am just trying to determine your leanings in rating this style as it better informs me as to how the Wittekerke will suit me or otherwise. Also, how extensively have you pursued Belgian witbiers? Your stated rating of 5th amongst Belgian examples led me to infer that you have tried a very extensive range of them.
I have only a limited experience with Belgian witbiers as, while I appreciate them, they are not my favourite style and while there I tended to pursue other beers. (And I was not there as a beer tourist anyway.) Of the ones listed in this thread, I seem to recall enjoying the Blanche de Saisis and Blanche de Honnelles. Hoegaarden is okay. I know that I have tried Blanche de Bruges too, but I just cannot remember it - obviously it was a very good night
.Anyway, if nothing else, I think that the Wittekerke is probably worth sampling while it is here, so I'll try to get down to Joe's sometime within the next week.