Mediocre Beer

[liamt07]

I would still prefer to support a local guy making a so-so ale as opposed to buying macro

Would you still support a local guy making a so-so beer over a less local guy making world class beer though? Considering our proximity to some world class brews, this is the real question I think.

[lister]

I would still prefer to support a local guy making a so-so ale as opposed to buying macro

Would you still support a local guy making a so-so beer over a less local guy making world class beer though? Considering our proximity to some world class brews, this is the real question I think.

All things being equal I will support the local guy. It's in my best interest

I will pick excellent over average no matter of location or it being macro.

Of course with the price not being outrageous.

[chris_schryer]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys. I'm not going to go one by one through topics brought up, but here are some things rattling around my brain having read through the thread:

There is absolutely a need for "negativity", if by that we mean criticism (which I don't think is actually negative). When new brewery X sends me a totally uninspired, poorly executed, ale, I'll tell them. Again, not finger-pointing publicly, but using my experience and knowledge to try to help others get better. If you're at a festival and you try a beer you think could be better, go ahead and say so. It's like Jeremy noted, don't be too Canadian/polite to help somebody out when you are positioned to do so.

The Paul Dickey factor, as I shall call it, works. In fact, it's sort of what I'd like to see any new would-be brewery do: reach out to a skilled brewer, even if they're not a full-time employee, to ensure that the beer is better than "fine". However, you're right, it's not sustainable, as Paul obviously has a finite amount of time to make beer. But who knows, maybe we'll shortly have a Michael Hancock factor (though he'll be pretty busy this year), or a Mike Lackey factor. Actually, we might be starting to see the shape of a Ryan Morrow factor forming. And that's great, in my books.

Lastly, and not just in this thread, but in too many conversations across the province right now: Ontario makes a lot more than just good pales. A lot more. And there are multiple breweries that regularly produce epic beers in a wide variety of styles. Off the top of my head

Amsterdam
Great Lakes
Bellwoods
Indie
5 Paddles
House Ales
Sawdust

And there are more, for sure. Plenty of new brewers in Ottawa and Southern Ontario that I've not had the joy of trying yet.

Also, the quality really is great. I've been lucky recently to have a few friends either traveling in the states, or else from there coming up here, bringing me beers. There is no doubt there are some amazing brews. Heady is rock-solid and I had a bottle of Alpine Duet that was just sublime. The list of Pliny and various Stones etc etc is definitely long, but remember, there are over 2000 breweries down there; we're high-grading the beers, and effectively ignoring the other 99%. Then we get in a snit that there are many "okay" beers in Ontario, but ignore the top 1% that is home to the Karma Citras, Boneshakers/Fractures, XBYs, Donkey Venoms, etc. If I had to make a list of beers from Ontario that I've checked-in on Untappd that I rated 4.5 or better, it would be a long list indeed. Yes, there are a handful of breweries that are producing the bulk of those (though there are always exceptions), but that even goes to the point of why I wrote the post in the first place: It shouldn't be that way. We should be celebrating the epic beers, and gently encouraging the less so, to get better.

Did any of you try the Lady Stavoren at the Amsterdam BrewPub? Or 3 Minutes to Midnight from Bellwoods? Or Slippery When Brett from Great Lakes? Those were all literally World class. And there are so many more that would easily keep up with the best of PQ or BC or US or UK or NZ or any other 2 letter initial places (and maybe even some 3s!)

[grub]

On not being "too canadian" - it's impossible to learn what to fix if you are never told there's something wrong. We can't get anyone to improve if that's the approach we take.

I always try to give honest feedback on anything i drink - homebrew, commercial, whatever. I know that, as a brewer myself, that's exactly what i'd want to hear. Even if it's the little minute details or things that fall into personal preference, tell them that. Those tiny details are what makes the difference between excellent and world class. Be as open and honest as you can. Anytime someone hands me a spiced beer, I'll immediately tell them that I'm generally not a fan of spiced beers, and explain what in theirs (if any) falls into the "stuff i hate" category, so they know whether to take that with a grain of salt or not. Even so, I'll give my honest feedback on the beer based on style and what they tell me they were going for (since sometimes styles are dumb). I love having that dialog even if I don't have much good to say, because they'll often want to know why you think what you do, and how you'd do things differently. Often we're our own harshest critics, so they might have already thought some of what you do and just need someone to validate it (or discredit it).

On the same token, don't be afraid to let them know everything that you love about it too. Stuff like BA/RB/Untappd may seem like nothing to you, but it's pretty neat to see your stuff being reviewed by the masses. The more praise they get, the more they know what to brew next or where to direct their seasonals and such.

[G.M. Gillman]

I'd argue the beer on average is much better, both the range of styles but also the actual brewing. Many beers still aren't that good, and this isn't new. I find many are indistinct in taste or have the "wrong" taste for the style. I like to accentuate the positive too, so on the plus side, I'll mention, say, Hop Addict or Crazy Canuck or Tempest or Sawdust City Lone Pine Ale or House Ales Tu Hop or 10 Bitter Years - when these beers first came out they were excellent, right on style and no need to tweak them to make them better. But years ago that was the exception, the norm was more relatively bland beers - they were craft for sure but didn't always have enough forceful flavour or again the tastes weren't quite right - for me of course, I guess some people liked them. So overall I find the situation much better and that is because people travel, they see what is available elsewhere, beer festivals often feature beers from elsewhere including Quebec, we get interesting imports. So all that raises the bar.

Still, I do believe that there are very few world class beers. There are many very good ones, but not that many world class beers. World class meaning, not just brewed with a lot of taste, but brewed with a great (very good) beer taste. I honestly feel that (Albertan, yes) Saaz Pilz had the real beer taste, it doesn't have to be an old style to do it, black IPA can be world class too in the right hands. That Andechs Doppelbock and the draft Courage IRS I mentioned in another thread are world class. I know we have some here too, but not that many I think. Then too that is true of the U.S. scene also.

Gary

[cratez]

I know we have some here too, but not that many I think. Then too that is true of the U.S. scene also.

Nope, only in your world Gary. The rest of us know that the U.S. is the world's leading craft beer nation by almost every measure (quality, innovation, variety of styles brewed, etc). As atomeyes pointed out in another thread, the Top 5 breweries in the world as ranked by RateBeer users are all American. Most of the top-ranked beers on BeerAdvocate are American. Most beer writers acknowledge that the Yanks revived craft brewing in the modern era and continue to lead the way in countless areas. You are basically alone in your view that U.S. craft brewers and bars are somehow inferior when all evidence points to the contrary.

[chris_schryer]

Woah, anger and accusations!

First off, does Ratebeer say what percentage of it's users are American? I bet it's pretty high. Citing ratebeer is pretty weak sauce anyway....

Gary's point, and one that I agree with, though I assume we have different standards for the term "World Class", is that the percentage of truly excellent beers from the US vs total production is probably roughly on par with Canada, maybe a bit ahead. But not much.

To say that writers acknowledge that Americans "revived" craftbrewing is like saying that the team that wins the super bowl is "World Champion". Top secret: in most of Europe, craft brewing never went anywhere, and hardly needed reviving. Yes, Americans revived craft brewing in North America, and you could argue that that influenced the UK and Oz/NZ. But a lot of Belgians and Germans would laugh in your face for suggesting that they stopped craft brewing their beer at some point.....

Lastly, I have no idea where you read that Gary thinks US brewers are inferior in some way, unless it's something from other posts I haven't read, but I get none of that here. In general, I find more moaning about how inferior Canadian, and particularly Ontario brewing is on Bartowel. Neither of those statements are true.

[G.M. Gillman]

Thanks Chris for your statements since I fear I have been misunderstood. I have the greatest admiration for U.S. craft brewing which I've followed since its inception. It is certainly one of the greatest brewing countries today (vs. in 1976 or 1986, say). However, I believe there aren't more world class beers proportionately in the States than here and there aren't huge numbers of them. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is world class, yes. There are numerous others but not a huge number, IMO.

To me the term world class is a very high designation, you can be excellent without being world class.

Gary

[BlackRedGold]

Also, the quality really is great. I've been lucky recently to have a few friends either traveling in the states, or else from there coming up here, bringing me beers. There is no doubt there are some amazing brews. Heady is rock-solid and I had a bottle of Alpine Duet that was just sublime. The list of Pliny and various Stones etc etc is definitely long, but remember, there are over 2000 breweries down there; we're high-grading the beers, and effectively ignoring the other 99%. Then we get in a snit that there are many "okay" beers in Ontario, but ignore the top 1% that is home to the Karma Citras, Boneshakers/Fractures, XBYs, Donkey Venoms, etc. If I had to make a list of beers from Ontario that I've checked-in on Untappd that I rated 4.5 or better, it would be a long list indeed. Yes, there are a handful of breweries that are producing the bulk of those (though there are always exceptions), but that even goes to the point of why I wrote the post in the first place: It shouldn't be that way. We should be celebrating the epic beers, and gently encouraging the less so, to get better.

The issue in Ontario is that, for the most part, the flagship beers of the most widely available craft breweries are all tame styles - lagers and pale/blond ales. Which Great Lakes, Amsterdam, Muskoka, Nickel Brook, Flying Monkeys, Beau's, Mill Street, Steamwhistle beer are you most likely to find at your local Beer Store or LCBO?

Unibroue proved long ago that a brewery in Quebec could succeed with a very different style as their flagship beer. And the craft breweries that came after them were confident that they could put out a flagship beer in unique styles. But breweries in Ontario seem reluctant to do that.

[jaymack]

I would still prefer to support a local guy making a so-so ale as opposed to buying macro

Would you still support a local guy making a so-so beer over a less local guy making world class beer though? Considering our proximity to some world class brews, this is the real question I think.

Sorry, for clarity I meant in regards to 2 options put in front of me and by Macro I'm talking the Inbevs and MolsonCoors variety

[cratez]

does Ratebeer say what percentage of it's users are American? I bet it's pretty high.

I don't know the exact stats – I'm sure one of the more involved RateBeerians could recite them – but it's the most highly-frequented rating site in the world with the broadest, most global membership. BeerAdvocate by contrast is more U.S.-centric but no less reputable IMO (see below).

Citing ratebeer is pretty weak sauce anyway...

Maybe in your view, but certainly not in mine. When it comes to beer reviews, I have more respect for the collective, democratic opinion of the thousands of beer geeks on RB, BA, Untapp'd, etc. than I do for any one individual.

Gary's point, and one that I agree with, though I assume we have different standards for the term "World Class," is that the percentage of truly excellent beers from the US vs total production is probably roughly on par with Canada, maybe a bit ahead.

And yet that really doesn't matter because so many of the "truly excellent" offerings from the States – Jai Alai, Hop Rod, Arrogant Bastard, Speedway Stout, Founders Breakfast, HopSlam, Sculpin, etc. – have wide distribution and are easily accessible. In other words, the mediocre offerings don't matter as much when such a large number of exceptional beers are widely available across the U.S.

Yes, Americans revived craft brewing in North America, and you could argue that that influenced the UK and Australia, NZ.

That is exactly what I'm referring to, and to imply otherwise is a cheap attempt to insult me. Also, U.S. innovation and influence in craft brewing has extended well beyond North America, the UK, and Oceania to include Latin America, Scandinavia, and Japan. Obvious examples like La Loggia, Mikkeller, and Baird Brewing abound.

Lastly, I have no idea where you read that Gary thinks US brewers are inferior in some way, unless it's something from other posts I haven't read, but I get none of that here.

Gary regularly writes about being underwhelmed by some of the best-regarded U.S. craft brewers and beer bars. See the New York thread, Beer Reviews section, and Perspective on Ontario Beer thread for more details. The claim that there aren't "that many" world class beers being brewed in the U.S. is absolutely hilarious and doesn't warrant any further comment.

Finally, my post was neither angry nor accusatory; I was simply pointing out that Gary's oft-stated disappointment with U.S. beers, brewers, and pubs is not shared by myself and many others in the craft beer community.

[toweringpine]

Woah, anger and accusations!

First off, does Ratebeer say what percentage of it's users are American? I bet it's pretty high. Citing ratebeer is pretty weak sauce anyway....

Gary's point, and one that I agree with, though I assume we have different standards for the term "World Class", is that the percentage of truly excellent beers from the US vs total production is probably roughly on par with Canada, maybe a bit ahead. But not much.

To say that writers acknowledge that Americans "revived" craftbrewing is like saying that the team that wins the super bowl is "World Champion". Top secret: in most of Europe, craft brewing never went anywhere, and hardly needed reviving. Yes, Americans revived craft brewing in North America, and you could argue that that influenced the UK and Oz/NZ. But a lot of Belgians and Germans would laugh in your face for suggesting that they stopped craft brewing their beer at some point.....

Lastly, I have no idea where you read that Gary thinks US brewers are inferior in some way, unless it's something from other posts I haven't read, but I get none of that here. In general, I find more moaning about how inferior Canadian, and particularly Ontario brewing is on Bartowel. Neither of those statements are true.

I don't spend much time on Ratebeer. The idea of rating beers just takes away from the simpleness of just enjoying a beer. I will occasionally look up a few from the new LCBO release if I am not able to purchase all that interest me. I wonder though, if you can look up the highest rated breweries can you also look up the lowest rated ones? My father brought me a random selection of American brews not long ago. I tried each and looked them up afterwards. One ( DFH120 ) was rated at the very top. Another ( Shiner Bock ) was at the very bottom. There are plenty of "World Class" American craft beers out there but there are just as many stinkers.

[iguenard]

I know we have some here too, but not that many I think. Then too that is true of the U.S. scene also.

Nope, only in your world Gary. The rest of us know that the U.S. is the world's leading craft beer nation by almost every measure (quality, innovation, variety of styles brewed, etc). As atomeyes pointed out in another thread, the Top 5 breweries in the world as ranked by RateBeer users are all American. Most of the top-ranked beers on BeerAdvocate are American. Most beer writers acknowledge that the Yanks revived craft brewing in the modern era and continue to lead the way in countless areas. You are basically alone in your view that U.S. craft brewers and bars are somehow inferior when all evidence points to the contrary.

Name me a single world class witbier, abbey dubbel or kolsch from the US and I will support these claims...


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Didn't think so. When it comes to subtlety (sp), US looses it faster than a priest in daycare.

Ian

[G.M. Gillman]

I form my judgment based on my palate and experience - if some disagree and even a majority of people on rating sites do, it won't change my mind. I've never had a U.S. pils-style as good as Pilsner Urquell at its best, so in my mind, no U.S. pils is in that class - there are many excellent ones though and Firestone Walker's Pivo is one;; Big Rock Saaz Pilz is another. I've had some fine Impy stouts, but none as good as Courage IRS - many bock styles, but none as good as that Andechs Doppelbock I mentioned. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is great as are its many progeny, but no American pale ale I've had equals England's best such as Old Hooky, say, or Fuller's or Adnam's cask beers.

I can accept that others may disagree and hope they can accord me the same nod. I never get annoyed that my opinions don't find favour with some others; it should work the other way, too.

Gary

[iguenard]

I form my judgment based on my palate and experience - if some disagree and even a majority of people on rating sites do, it won't change my mind. I've never had a U.S. pils-style as good as Pilsner Urquell at its best, so in my mind, no U.S. pils is in that class - there are many excellent ones though and Firestone Walker's Pivo is one. I've had some fine Impy stouts, but none as good as Courage IRS - many bock styles, but none as good as that Andechs Doppelbock I mentioned. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is great as are its many progeny, but no American pale ale I've had equals England's best such as Old Hooky, say, or Fuller's or Adnam's cask beers. I can accept that others may disagree and hope they can accord me the same nod. I never get annoyed that my opinions don't find favour with some others; it should work the other way, too.

Gary

Man, you had me until you fucked with SNPA . besides you've obviously never had Hill Farmstead Edward. Anyways, I agree with your first sentences... US is to beer what screaming in a microphone is to poetry.