Mediocre Beer

[atomeyes]

In general, I find more moaning about how inferior Canadian, and particularly Ontario brewing is on Bartowel. Neither of those statements are true.

The Toronto (or Ontario) beer scene is at least 3 years behind the US, but probably closer to 5 (or more) years behind the US. but i'm using markers like: innovation, brett, barrel aging, fruit aging.

so i would agree that we're inferior. Ontario doesn't have a lot of world-class beer. if you want to compare our province of 11 million to small states like Vermont, or to Colorado, or (insert another state other than CA), then we really are lagging and we definitely are not trend setting.

then again, maybe every new beer doesn't have to be a swashbuckler. maybe a really nice, clean lager is nice. or a great witbier.

[iguenard]

maybe a really nice, clean lager is nice. or a great witbier.

Amen brother!!

[iguenard]

I'll add to the flames and just go out and say... I love talking to ontarians about mediocre beer... its like talking hockey with Wayne Gretzky

But seriously, dont look at Ratebeer for comparing one beer versus the other... look at rate beer ratings individually... top X lists are doomed for homerism. Whereas I find that style rankings are pretty accurate. If a pale lager is in the 100th percentile... odds are its a damn fine light pale lager.

Ive only ever been had by Cascade Apricot being 100th percentile...I think I am -100% Dev on that one.


Then again, even within the Imperial/Double Stout category... you get into the Robert Parker syndrome, where certain characteristics dominate the top 100.

Like Toucan Sam... just follow your nose. Leave no bottle uncorked, and leave a mess behind!

[G.M. Gillman]

I have searched out Hill Farmstead - came close recently but no luck. Look forward to trying the beers when I find them and if they are super-amazing I'll be happy to say so. I am not in thrall by the way to the foreign as such: e.g., I am not a great fan of most Belgian beers, some wits and other styles (I like some saisons) apart. We all have our own taste and to that degree I do report on my own world, all I can do is state my experience. I read that of others with interest and learn a lot from them, it all goes into the pot and then I say what I think.

Gary

[atomeyes]

i should also add that websites like BA and RB (i prefer the former) are great. i'd like to see what the masses say about a beer before i drop $3 to $40 on it. Bruery Bois is a perfect example. not sure how anyone can discount another beer geek's tasting notes before sampling or buying a beer

Chris,
In fact, as we've seen with Left Field (although soon they will cease to be a contract brewery) contract brewing can work very well.

just curious as to how or why you can say that it worked very well for LF. yes, they're opening a brewery, but we have no idea how profitable contract brewing was for them. it was simply proof of concept and brand building. doubt it made them much money.

[G.M. Gillman]

Another great U.S. lager by the way is Anchor California Lager, the late-1800's recreation of a beer from the long-disappeared Boca Brewery in the Sierra mountains. It hasn't been out all that long (couple of years) and I'd like to try it again, but if it holds up, and I am sure it will, that would qualify IMO as a world classic American lager because it uses all Cluster hops notably and more to the point, just tastes great. In this case, I did look at the rating sites and they liked it but not to that high a percentile, I think it was something like 73. To me it is worth 20 points more. So here it goes the other way, I feel something is much more valuable than the average opinion out there apparently: but that's okay, taste is taste.

In porter, Anchor Porter is excellent but not a world classic IMO. And it goes on.

We can all appreciate fine beer here, the distinctions and fine points of classification should not unduly detain us, nor should the disappointments that will come the way of any serious student of the beer palate.

Gary

[cratez]

I've never had a U.S. pils-style as good as Pilsner Urquell at its best, so in my mind, no U.S. pils is in that class - there are many excellent ones though and Firestone Walker's Pivo is one; Big Rock Saaz Pilz is another. I've had some fine Impy stouts, but none as good as Courage IRS - many bock styles, but none as good as that Andechs Doppelbock I mentioned. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is great...

That you consider these examples to be the cream of the crop is perfectly valid. I just don't agree that there "aren't that many" world class beers being brewed in the U.S. To my mind, there are at least 100 American craft beers that fit that description, if by world class we're referring to truly outstanding beers that are among the top examples of their style. The various rating sites, beer books, and magazines that acknowledge America's leading role in the craft beer world seem to share this viewpoint, not to mention many brewers. But obviously you're entitled to your own opinion.

Name me a single world class witbier, abbey dubbel, or kolsch from the U.S. and I will support these claims...

Your evidence as to why the U.S. isn't a global leader in craft brewing is that they don't dominate three Old World styles out of roughly 105 different styles of beer? Man, debating with you guys is easier than I thought.

Also, my comments weren't intended to "add to the flames," and I find it amazing that you think such a patently uncontroversial view is somehow inflammatory.

[Bytowner]

The Toronto (or Ontario) beer scene is at least 3 years behind the US, but probably closer to 5 (or more) years behind the US. but i'm using markers like: innovation, brett, barrel aging, fruit aging.

Well that's the difference maker I think. I couldn't care less about "innovation, brett, barrel aging, fruit aging". My favourite beers and beer experiences remain traditional, or at least straight forward.

I have no idea whether I'm counted among liamt07's unworthy bartowelers, though I suspect I am. It generally comes down to what styles you enjoy drinking I think and whether you can appreciate something that isn't "exciting".

[TheSevenDuffs]

just curious as to how or why you can say that it worked very well for LF. yes, they're opening a brewery, but we have no idea how profitable contract brewing was for them. it was simply proof of concept and brand building. doubt it made them much money.

I should have elaborated. What I meant to say was that contract brewing can produce some excellent beer. From what I have seen in Ontario, Left Field is the only contract brewery (albeit not for long) that I would buy a pint of with other decent choices available.

[TheSevenDuffs]

The Toronto (or Ontario) beer scene is at least 3 years behind the US, but probably closer to 5 (or more) years behind the US. but i'm using markers like: innovation, brett, barrel aging, fruit aging.

Well that's the difference maker I think. I couldn't care less about "innovation, brett, barrel aging, fruit aging". My favourite beers and beer experiences remain traditional, or at least straight forward.

I have no idea whether I'm counted among liamt07's unworthy bartowelers, though I suspect I am. It generally comes down to what styles you enjoy drinking I think and whether you can appreciate something that isn't "exciting".

I understand where you are coming from given your preferences in craft beer, but I would say that you are the minority on BT.

That being said, regardless of what each of us like as individuals, if you want to compare the overall craft beer scene in Ontario to anywhere else, you would look at everything. Traditional styles would be a part of that, but there is so much beyond that.

Looking at Ontario and comparing it to most of the US, IMO we are way behind in all of the areas that atomeyes mentioned. We have made a lot of progress with IPAs over the past 1-2 years, but I can't think of any other area that we've really progressed noticeably in.

When it comes to barrel aging, we have A LOT to learn. And when it comes to general creativity of styles, thankfully we have Bellwoods, otherwise there wouldn't be much going on in that respect either.

I'd agree that we are probably 3-5 years behind much of the US.

[chris_schryer]

Hmmmm, some more thoughts:

Cratez: First off, I'm not trying to start something, I swear. That being said: I think it important to say that the term "World Class" is, of course, totally subjective. I actually agree with your feeling that there may well be 100 World Class beers in the US. Gary might feel that that is outside the definition of the term, that only the top three or so can stake a claim to the label. That's his prerogative. As is his (and anybody else's taste), as he's noted. In rating overall likability, there's no right and wrong.

Your point about the availability of the greats in the USA vs Canada is interesting, but it has absolutely no bearing on the realities of brewing in each country, just the distribution laws. Vermont's World Class beers aren't more Word Class than Ontario's just because you can get them in South Carolina, but you can't get XX Tempest in Quebec. The beer is good, whether it's easy to find or not. Right?

As I allude to in the post that I shared at the start of all this, obviously I don't value BA/RB that much. I don't think the democratic voice matters, or else we're all cheering on the biggest losing team ever. Mouth-votes say NA Adjunct Lager and NA Light Lager are the top. Not on BA/RB, but in the general beer market place. Just because many people say something is good, doesn't mean it is good. That's Cobert Wikiality.... There are a handful of people who's opinion on beer I trust, but mainly I trust myself. I know a good beer from a bad one, and I know when I'm drinking an exceptional one. I don't need to be told.

Lastly, I wasn't trying to insult you regarding the revitalizing of craftbeer, just responding to what you said. Even among some respected beer writers, there is a shocking North American-centric view.

Atomeyes, also not trying to pick a fight, but to defend a point: Can you quantify what you mean about us being behind? Like, I agree that Ontario was behind the curve on starting the styles you mentioned, and if that's all you mean, then okay. But I've had epic barrel-aged beers from some of the top US brewers, and they're not better than some of the epic barrel-aged beers I've had from some of our top brewers. The same is true about sours, brett beers, and fruit beers. If you mean that there are more individual examples of these styles in the states, I agree there too, but again, we have a fraction of their population, so maybe it's not a matter of time but rather market? In terms of trend-setting, it's hard to say until we can see trends that have been set, but I would agree, to date we haven't really introduced a "thing". The huge prevalence of cask beer in the province could turn out to be our "thing", I don't know. Like I said, not being a jackass, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Edit: Atomeyes, sorry, somehow over-looked one thing you said and forgot to follow-up on another.

First, yes, for many people BA/RB is a good barometre to check before dropping top dollar, or else deciding how to fill your allocation at customs. Not for me, but for many, sure.

Second: Left Field has been successful, no doubt. I don't think it matters how much they profited this year; that was probably never the point. It was to build business and have a solid idea of what they could budget for their first year in their own building. Also to provide solid numbers to the people who yes or no a business loan. And I assume they made more than if they were building their own space right away, where break-even would be awesome in the first year.

[Bytowner]

Looking at Ontario and comparing it to most of the US, IMO we are way behind in all of the areas that atomeyes mentioned. We have made a lot of progress with IPAs over the past 1-2 years, but I can't think of any other area that we've really progressed noticeably in.

When it comes to barrel aging, we have A LOT to learn. And when it comes to general creativity of styles, thankfully we have Bellwoods, otherwise there wouldn't be much going on in that respect either.

I'd agree that we are probably 3-5 years behind much of the US.

But why should that be something everyone aims for? Why should every country stick all their beer in liquor barrels and flavour it with ackees?

I'm less than impressed when I go to the UK or Germany or Belgium or the Czech Republic and find bottled "innovative" beers, because (a) it's not what I'm looking for in those places, and (b) they usually don't do it as well as they do other things. Competitive advantage isn't just for watches and cars. It's not, as liamt07 suggests a lack of beer experience or education, in fact, in my experience, it's quite the opposite.

[Craig]

just curious as to how or why you can say that it worked very well for LF. yes, they're opening a brewery, but we have no idea how profitable contract brewing was for them. it was simply proof of concept and brand building. doubt it made them much money.

I should have elaborated. What I meant to say was that contract brewing can produce some excellent beer. From what I have seen in Ontario, Left Field is the only contract brewery (albeit not for long) that I would buy a pint of with other decent choices available.

Collective Arts are pretty good too. Denison's too, but now I'm out of names.

[chris_schryer]

I still get hung up on this idea that we don't produce a wide variety of styles. Yes, what you can generally get at the LCBO is limited, but direct from the brewery is a different story. As I noted a moment ago, that's not a weakness of brewing, just distribution. Bellwoods, Indie, Great Lakes, Amsterdam and 5 Paddles all currently have styles of beer in my fridge that are not just pale ales, IPAs, IIPAs and RISs. Bock, barleywine, wheat wine, gose, porter, dubbel, saison, some stuff barrel-aged, at least one with brett. Maybe they're not all world class, but most of them are at least very good. And there are a lot more, but I've only got a little fridge for beer.....

[G.M. Gillman]

Some good points here but I see it like Chris does, Ian too mostly.

To me world class means very top of the line, on a par with the best in the world. Victory Prima Pils, say, IMO isn't in that class, I never much enjoyed the beer. Brooklyn Lager, ditto. Sam Adams Lager is nice, but not world class to my mind. I mentioned one I thought would qualify, Anchor California Lager (it was on draft at the Pony in NYC recently but I couldn't get there). Some others may exist but all of us can only taste so much and based on what I've tried, very few North American lagers are really cream of the crop in international terms. But that doesn't mean, again, there aren't many enjoyable lagers out there. This may be mostly definitional as Chris was getting at.

As again all our perspectives are subjective, I should point out I agree with Bytowner when he said he isn't interested in fruit, brett and barrel-aged beers. I'd add flavoured beers. I rarely have them, maybe in a flight; also the odd barrel-flavoured beer works for me, usually when the storage time is minimal. I just don't like chocolate in any stout or porter, coffee too, to me they don't belong there and traduce the true flavour of beer. But I read with interest the comments and ratings of people who like them, for them that's fine.

Rarely do I order a 7% or higher DIPA - just too strong since when I have a beer I like to have more than one. Plus, the heavy American hop hit of these is not a taste I really like. I do enjoy a well-made APA and Sierra Nevada has created a classic there. There are numerous beers probably as good but the one that came first should be the classic, perhaps we need to include Liberty Ale too.

It's personal and subjective and if people like something, I am not going to tell them they are wrong, but rather, explain what I like in my preferences. Just on the point of beer bars: I was never in a bad one. However, even in some famous names in the U.S. I've had beers that were off, sour (unintentionally), almost flat when that wasn't the style, etc. It happens.

Gary

P.S. Of course I do like Impys and barley wines - and doppels - but these are drunk generally in smaller glasses. I suppose with a DIPA you can do the same but somehow that way to drink them doesn't seem right... or maybe it is the heavy American hop attack that puts me off.