Mediocre Beer

[matt7215]

I still get hung up on this idea that we don't produce a wide variety of styles. Yes, what you can generally get at the LCBO is limited, but direct from the brewery is a different story. As I noted a moment ago, that's not a weakness of brewing, just distribution. Bellwoods, Indie, Great Lakes, Amsterdam and 5 Paddles all currently have styles of beer in my fridge that are not just pale ales, IPAs, IIPAs and RISs. Bock, barleywine, wheat wine, gose, porter, dubbel, saison, some stuff barrel-aged, at least one with brett. Maybe they're not all world class, but most of them are at least very good. And there are a lot more, but I've only got a little fridge for beer.....

but this is only true for people in toronto and maybe ottawa, everywhere else just has what the LCBO has, which is both a problem with distribution and a problem with what is submitted to and sold through the LCBO.

Beaus has the widest variety of stuff availible at the LCBO but I think its pretty well covered how most of us feel about what they make.

if i go to the LCBO tonight i can get some great ontario pale ales but if i want a porter or stout, or pilsner, or something belgian-ish, it wont be brewed in ontario

[TheSevenDuffs]

Looking at Ontario and comparing it to most of the US, IMO we are way behind in all of the areas that atomeyes mentioned. We have made a lot of progress with IPAs over the past 1-2 years, but I can't think of any other area that we've really progressed noticeably in.

When it comes to barrel aging, we have A LOT to learn. And when it comes to general creativity of styles, thankfully we have Bellwoods, otherwise there wouldn't be much going on in that respect either.

I'd agree that we are probably 3-5 years behind much of the US.

But why should that be something everyone aims for? Why should every country stick all their beer in liquor barrels and flavour it with ackees?

I'm less than impressed when I go to the UK or Germany or Belgium or the Czech Republic and find bottled "innovative" beers, because (a) it's not what I'm looking for in those places, and (b) they usually don't do it as well as they do other things. Competitive advantage isn't just for watches and cars. It's not, as liamt07 suggests a lack of beer experience or education, in fact, in my experience, it's quite the opposite.

I didn't suggest that we should stick everything in to barrels, nor do I think we should.

Barrel aging is, however, a huge part of the craft beer movement right now and it is something that many of us love. My point was that, in general, it is something that is not done much at all in Ontario and, when it is done, it is generally done poorly (save for Bellwoods).

Edit: By barrel aging, I am not just referring to the bourbon barrel bombs that have become so popular (stouts, barleyeines, etc.) I am also referring to barrel aging with respect to wild ales, saisons, lambics, etc.

[iguenard]

Name me a single world class witbier, abbey dubbel, or kolsch from the U.S. and I will support these claims...

Your evidence as to why the U.S. isn't a global leader in craft brewing is that they don't dominate three Old World styles out of roughly 105 different styles of beer? Man, debating with you guys is easier than I thought.

Also, my comments weren't intended to "add to the flames," and I find it amazing that you think such a patently uncontroversial view is somehow inflammatory.

I just gave some top-of-mind examples... other than pimp out Stouts and IPAs, what has the US done for beer other than adding hops?

*read sarcasm here* This isn't a debate, just trying to educate you

The flame thing you didn't quite understand. But it was a joke anyways.

Cheers

[iguenard]

By the way, belgians at Rodenbach were barrel aging beers before the US Civil war.

Other than spawning thousand upon thousand of same-old microbreweries, if you remove the barrel aging imperial stouts and american IPAs from the mix... there hasn't been much progress in the US outside of gimmicky events and releases.

Not many US breweries master the classics... and those that do, well, aren't known for it unless they hop it all up for rate beer.

Canada's gotta let go of that inferiority complex in terms of brewing. We have breweries like Albion, Bellwoods, Dieu du Ciel, that master classics, here at home.

Current problem is that like the US, we have too much mediocre brews on our shelves... Quebec has started cannibalizing some of the bottom feeders... if you'd stop drinking local for the sake of drinking local, maybe they'd start trying to woo you with better beer

[G.M. Gillman]

Barrel aging Impys isn't new because strong stout was always aged in wooden vats, hogsheads or barrels in the old days. I suppose bourbon barrel aging is new, but even then they used sherry barrels (this is documented) for porter in the old days, so probably barrels that held spirits were used too. Possibly, U.S. oak as the aging medium is new. The British and Europeans did not use U.S. wood until quite recently, the British brewers thought it gave an off taste to the beer. Just now on Ron Pattinson's site, he has tables which summarize a breweries' notes on competitors' beers in the 1920's, they did this (Whitbread) to keep track of the competition and varying aspects of their beers. From time to time in the tables - Ron has included a number of these not just in the current series, but in earlier years - you see the terms "American cask" or "U.S. cask" in the same list where you might find "very poor", "fair", "going off", terms like that. They didn't like the taste (probably vanilla and coconut) that American oak imparted and felt European woods, especially from the Baltic, were much more neutral on the beer's taste.

Now, you will find too in the same list of flavour comments, terms like "very good", "very fair" and similar, but the adverting to U.S. wood was intended as a criticism, at the time.

So all this to say the modern barrel-aged beers are an innovation probably, since American wood almost invariably would be used for this but wasn't used formerly in Britain. (There is an exception: Guinness was okay with U.S. barrels for its beer).

The reason the odd U.S. barrel popped up in English brewing in the 20's was they used them during WW I when there was an interruption of wood supply or shipments from usual European sources.

(Now that I think of it, Traquair is aged in a very old, unlined tun which almost surely is not American wood, and true enough the beer hasn't any of the taste I'd associate with the typical modern barrel-aged beer or with I&G's beers for that matter which I'd imagine are aged mostly in barrels made from U.S. oak).

Of course too there are all the fruit and spiced beers but true enough the Belgians have done this forever (Brits too, earlier), so it's not new but Americans did bring it forward in world beer culture one might say.

The U.S. gave great vitality to the world beer scene though. Michael Jackson recognized this early on. You can see it by the rebound effect on the old world, especially in Britain - always kin of course to America, the influences go back in forth in the family so to speak (linked by a common culture and civilization).

As an example of an American beer I thought was better than most APA, I'd cite Left Hand's Sawtooth ESB from CO. On cask at Pony bar (this on an earlier trip) it was extremely good, quite similar to a good British special bitter. I mentioned also Boont Amber, which has a similar profile, or Mendocino Red Tail Ale. All these IMO are tributes to some of the best brewing in the world - English special bitters/ESB - as Durham ESB on cask is here. We can be glad of all these whether we call them world classics or not.

Gary

[grub]

I've had some fine Impy stouts, but none as good as Courage IRS... Sierra Nevada Pale Ale is great as are its many progeny, but no American pale ale I've had equals England's best such as Old Hooky, say, or Fuller's or Adnam's cask beers.

except in the above cases you're comparing different styles - american and uk ales are nowhere near the same, and even the finest example of each would be loved or hated based on a persons preference. that's not a lack of world class american beers, that's your preference for uk styles - an entirely separate issue and completely outside this discussion. Conversely, I don't get to slam all english brewers as "lacking world class beers" just because i like hoppy american style ales and they don't make the exemplars of the style. That doesn't invalidate my opinion (or yours) about what we like and which beers worldwide are our favourites, but you do have to set personal bias aside when you're talking about something this broad and general.

we're talking about number and proportion of world class beers in any style - generally decided by raters/reviewers/competitions/whatever - and without the bias of a single person's style preferences.

edit: started typing that reply this morning before the network went down at work... finally got it to submit, despite the reference now being pages back.

[G.M. Gillman]

I did say SN's Pale Ale was world class. My feeling that it is not as good as Old Hooky, say, does not preclude that, I am talking about different things.

By the way the U.S. pale ales were patterned after English models and some still are very close, I mentioned some names in my post above. Liberty Ale and SN's Pale Ale did end up being a unique style but I'm not sure that was intended originally; but anyway yes with English bitters these are two sub-sets now of the pale ale category.

Gary

[markaberrant]

You guys are leaps and bounds ahead of where you were a few years ago. But it is the old classic where you always want more of what you don't have.

The more craft beer I drink, the more I want quality, fresh, local beer. I don't even really care what style it is. I crave quality and freshness, and that really only comes from local beer, and preferably directly from the brewery or busy pub taps. Beer stores are ok, but the beer needs to be stored cold, and there better be bottling dates, or I'm not interested.

I truly believe the model to aspire to is to have a quality local brewery or breweries in every community that primarily serves the local market. And each brewery should try to carve out its own niche; I get really tired of breweries trying to brew English, American, german and Belgian styles; most of which they do poorly. Pick one and master it. There are more and more breweries popping up all over the place, so this should take care of itself.

But then it comes back around to quality doesn't it? There is definitely a shortage of quality brewers/breweries. These things take time. Just because there is a new found demand for craft beer, doesn't mean there is a bunch of savy, experienced brewmasters ready to jump off the bench and hit a home run.

You've also got the issue of nano and contract brewing which allows new producers easy access to the market. It is what it is, but I can't say that either has had a net positive effect.

And what is the definition of quality? Or a mature craft beer scene? The BA/RB crowd wants nothing but rare, limited sours, barrel aged beers and gimmick beers. Gotta say that I have completely turned my back on chasing down anything rare or gimmicky, and I certainly have no use for anything overpriced. I believe this bubble will eventually burst, or at least I am hoping that some of these breweries actually get good at making these beers. I'll take a well made pils any day over some of these horrendous r&d experiments gone wrong.

Guess my point still remains the same; support the heck out of the great local beers and breweries, seek them out. There will always be pretenders and mediocre breweries, so what? Help others see the difference, and never settle for mediocre beer.

[chris_schryer]

@TheSevenDuffs, I want to ask you what are some of these very poor barrel-aged beers from Ontario you've had, but don't want to start a pissing-on-breweries line. So instead, I'll say that perhaps you need to drink more barrel-aged stuff? Great Lakes, Amsterdam and Sawdust are all doing some amazing things with barrels. Not just bourbon aging-but using wine barrels, infected barrels, etc. True, not every one of them is a homerun, but many of them are fantastic. Even Radical Road's first two offerings were quite nice, and a far sight better than some of the beers people lust after from the states. Indeed, I would take a Canny Man over a Backwoods Bastard (not that it's a bad beer by any standard). Like I said, having had many fine barrel-aged beers from the US and also here, I can honestly say that we are doing just fine. True, less volume, but that's sort of inescapable.

Edit: Can't believe I didn't mention Indie there. They might be leading the charge. I've got some texts out, will report back.

[cratez]

That being said: I think it important to say that the term "World Class" is, of course, totally subjective. I actually agree with your feeling that there may well be 100 World Class beers in the US. Gary might feel that that is outside the definition of the term, that only the top three or so can stake a claim to the label. That's his prerogative.

Can't argue with that, though I provided a fairly clear definition of what I consider the term to mean.

Your point about the availability of the greats in the USA vs. Canada is interesting, but it has absolutely no bearing on the realities of brewing in each country, just the distribution laws. Vermont's World Class beers aren't more Word Class than Ontario's just because you can get them in South Carolina, but you can't get XX Tempest in Quebec. The beer is good, whether it's easy to find or not.

To the extent that there are three Sheds for every Alchemist that exists in the States, your point is well taken. But I would argue that 1) the situation in Ontario is more like fifteen Beau's/Lake of Bays/Trafalgars/Waterloos for every Bellwoods, and 2) the distribution issue matters because it affects the amount of good beer that is available in any given place, and what discerning consumers are able to purchase as a result. If I'm a beer nerd in Vermont, I can access not only the world-beating locals but also Lagunitas Sucks, Jack D'Or, Bigfoot, and other top U.S. beers, in which case the mere availability of Shed Mountain Ale becomes less important. And, as we know, the better bars and stores tend to stock more of the former (plus global imports) and less of the latter.

I don't value BA/RB that much...I don't think the democratic voice matters...Just because many people say something is good, doesn't mean it is good.

We'll have to agree to disagree here because I don't view the average passionate beer geek on BA/RB/Untappd to be part of "the ignorant masses."

A major reason why I respect the "meta" opinion of BAers and RBers is because the reviews come from thousands of people like yourself – thousands of beer geeks who are involved in their local beer scene, who homebrew or bartend, who thoughtfully taste and review beer and blog about it, and some of whom are cicerones and BJCP judges.

Sure, there's idiots who review on each site, but unless a beer or pub has a very low number of reviews, their opinions aren't able to override the collective, democratic view of the overall membership.

I know a good beer from a bad one, and I know when I'm drinking an exceptional one. I don't need to be told.

Nor does any thinking beer geek, and I sure hope you don't think you're special in this regard. The sites act as a guide for purchasing, how certain beers compare to others within their style, and so on. Ultimately users like myself form their own opinion by reviewing the beer, sharing our thoughts on this site, or simply chatting about it with others at a bar or festival.

Even among some respected beer writers, there is a shocking North American-centric view.

I don't find the praise "shocking" because the U.S. leads in the all the areas that myself, atomeyes, and TheSevenDuffs mentioned, as well as others. Here again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[markaberrant]

We'll have to agree to disagree here because I don't view the average passionate beer geek on BA/RB/Untappd to be part of "the ignorant masses."

A major reason why I respect the "meta" opinion of BAers and RBers is because the reviews come from thousands of people like yourself – thousands of beer geeks who are involved in their local beer scene, who homebrew or bartend, who thoughtfully taste and review beer and blog about it, and some of whom are cicerones and BJCP judges.

Sure, there's idiots who review on each site, but unless a beer or pub has a very low number of reviews, their opinions aren't able to override the collective, democratic view of the overall membership.

I rely on BA/RB. HOWEVER, there is an inherent bias on both sites towards extreme/rare beers. If you understand this, you can use these sites to your advantage.

And I am going to sound like an elitist prick here, but I don't trust a lot of folks' ability to correctly assess a beer. That being said, I am not perfect either, but there is a big difference between having training, years of experience tasting and brewing an extremely broad variety of styles and using a structured approach to evaluating beer, as opposed to the typical beer geek that thinks he knows everything because he got a can of Heady Topper and has been drinking craft beer 6 months longer than his friends have.

[iguenard]

We'll have to agree to disagree here because I don't view the average passionate beer geek on BA/RB/Untappd to be part of "the ignorant masses."

A major reason why I respect the "meta" opinion of BAers and RBers is because the reviews come from thousands of people like yourself – thousands of beer geeks who are involved in their local beer scene, who homebrew or bartend, who thoughtfully taste and review beer and blog about it, and some of whom are cicerones and BJCP judges.

Sure, there's idiots who review on each site, but unless a beer or pub has a very low number of reviews, their opinions aren't able to override the collective, democratic view of the overall membership.

I rely on BA/RB. HOWEVER, there is an inherent bias on both sites towards extreme/rare beers. If you understand this, you can use these sites to your advantage.

And I am going to sound like an elitist prick here, but I don't trust a lot of folks' ability to correctly assess a beer. That being said, I am not perfect either, but there is a big difference between having training, years of experience tasting and brewing an extremely broad variety of styles and using a structured approach to evaluating beer, as opposed to the typical beer geek that thinks he knows everything because he got a can of Heady Topper and has been drinking craft beer 6 months longer than his friends have.

There is a world of difference between world class beers based on taste, and world class beer based on the quality of its craft.

Ratebeer assesses the first very well, the second though, you can kinda find by its style overall %, but even then... perception is never perfect.

I wish you could select people in rate beer which you trust, or like their opinion, and get a third percentile based on the ratings of those people. That way you can filter out the 2012'ers as they like to call them.

Or even eliminate a particular group based on demographics.. (ex: eliminate american ratings from Altbiers, lol).

Ian

[chris_schryer]

Cratez I agree that there's lots to agree to disagree about, but I will say this: Distribution has no value whatsoever on the quality of a beer. If Bellwoods makes a single carboy of truly sublime beer, the fact that nearly nobody gets to try it doesn't negate it's quality. It was still amazing. The only thing that would "limit" it's quality would be it's generally poor showing on aggregate sites, due to it's tiny sample size of reviewers. Which brings me to me next point. I already agreed that as a tool to pre-screen big purchases, etc, those sites can be helpful.

As far as forming my own opinion of a beer, I certainly know that I'm not unique in doing so. It's just that when I have an opinion on a beer or a brewery or region, I'll usually use specific examples to back up my statements, rather than just pointing to Ratebeer.

Edit: Should mention, that last line isn't a direct dig at you; rather a generalization of many conversations I've had with people citing something "awesome" based on RB/BA.....

[chris_schryer]

Regarding barrel-aging right now in Ontario:

Indie 90-100 barrels full of beer
Amsterdam ~75 though Cody is literally on the road right now with a fresh shipment from Niagara. Should be at 150 in the next few weeks
Nickelbrook ~100

No word from Lackey yet but he's probably in the same range, and Sawdust doesn't have anything on the go as they're in transition at the moment.

Those barrels are a mix of just getting barrel taste (spirit, wine etc) and also funky barrels (brett, lacto, etc).

Add Bellwoods to that, as well as some smaller programs (like Cameron's, Radical Road, House Ales, Church-Key etc) and I would say that perhaps we're not so bad off.

[TheSevenDuffs]

@TheSevenDuffs, I want to ask you what are some of these very poor barrel-aged beers from Ontario you've had, but don't want to start a pissing-on-breweries line. So instead, I'll say that perhaps you need to drink more barrel-aged stuff? Great Lakes, Amsterdam and Sawdust are all doing some amazing things with barrels. Not just bourbon aging-but using wine barrels, infected barrels, etc. True, not every one of them is a homerun, but many of them are fantastic. Even Radical Road's first two offerings were quite nice, and a far sight better than some of the beers people lust after from the states. Indeed, I would take a Canny Man over a Backwoods Bastard (not that it's a bad beer by any standard). Like I said, having had many fine barrel-aged beers from the US and also here, I can honestly say that we are doing just fine. True, less volume, but that's sort of inescapable.

Edit: Can't believe I didn't mention Indie there. They might be leading the charge. I've got some texts out, will report back.

Chris, I will do my best to clarify without shitting on anyone.

Bellwoods and Indie are FANTASTIC at barrel aging. No complaints there at all.

Amsterdam has been hit and miss but Double Tempest was fantastic.

Sawdust - admittedly I have yet to try anything barrel aged from them.

Any brewery that I did not mention above has yet to impress me with a single barrel aged beer. I always buy everything once (assuming it is accessible to me), so I have tried most of them.

If you want to get in to specifics on my negative experiences with barrel aged Ontario beers, we can. But my understanding is that we were avoiding that type of discussion here.