Mediocre Beer

[cratez]

To address the original post, and despite my comments above, I'm still of the view that the overall quality and variety of beers are continually improving in Ontario.

Yes, there are a lot of new breweries opening lately and, as with any market where craft beer is exploding, not all of them are or will be great. But many of the recent upstarts – such as Bellwoods, Indie Alehouse, Collective Arts, Left Field, and Sawdust City – have surprised me with the excellent quality of their beers. Long-established breweries like Muskoka, Nickel Brook, Amsterdam, and Great Lakes have drastically upped their game and are now making some of the best, most cutting-edge beers in the province. Stalwarts like Black Oak and Grand River may not be leading the way in terms of innovation but they still make some seriously great beer. So you can count me among those who believe things are progressing overall.

Granted, we don't make a lot of world-beating beers, some of our brewers have core/retail lineups that are far too pedestrian, and distribution and accessibility remain major issues. But, as markaberrant said, the best way to promote better beer in Ontario is to keep supporting the shit out of our leading crafters while letting the mediocre ones fall by the wayside. And I do believe this will happen in the long run, even though we currently have plenty of pretenders around.

I rely on BA/RB. HOWEVER, there is an inherent bias on both sites towards extreme/rare beers. If you understand this, you can use these sites to your advantage.

And I am going to sound like an elitist prick here, but I don't trust a lot of folks' ability to correctly assess a beer. That being said, I am not perfect either, but there is a big difference between having training, years of experience tasting and brewing an extremely broad variety of styles and using a structured approach to evaluating beer, as opposed to the typical beer geek.

There's a bias towards those beers on the Top 100 and 250 lists and for higher gravity stuff, but you still have straightforward lagers, bitters, etc. that rank as top examples of their style on each site.

Anyway, your point regarding experience is valid. One of the BAers that I read most often is a BJCP judge named BEERchitect, as I find he brings a lot more knowledge and insight to the table than your average reviewer.

[chris_schryer]

Well put, thanks. I've had some really good barrels (in my books) from a few others, but hey, as we've already nailed down pretty well here, one person's world class is another's meh

Edit: Cratez, well put too.

[PeenSteen]

I have been looking through this thread and some really good points being made here as well as a bunch that I personally disagree with. In regards to barrel aging (bourbon, rum, wine etc.) we are a long ways behind, yes there have been a handful of successful, well executed examples but overall many attempts have been just OK or downright trifling. I will say that BOYD and 3 Minutes to Midnight are IMO world class.

As many others have stated hoppy beers in Ontario have come a long way but, IMO of course, even the ones that are among the best can't hang with the true world beaters out there. I'm not saying that to discredit these beers, most of which are staples in my fridge and are among my favourite beers.

In regards to a comment made by liamt07, I don't think he was taking shots at anybody's palate or knowledge of beer or whatever but he makes a good point. After tasting some of the hoppy stuff from Hill Farmstead it made me question how good everything else I ever tried was, I'm not kidding, totally changed the way I have viewed other IPA/DIPA/APA's out there. I really think that once you taste some of the best stuff thats out there (HF, RR, Heady, Pliny, BCBS and variants, loons etc.) you don't actually grasp how some of our local stuff that gets labeled as "world class" might just be "pretty good"

[atomeyes]

I did say SN's Pale Ale was world class. My feeling that it is not as good as Old Hooky, say, does not preclude that, I am talking about different things.

you're talking about different things, but then admit that you tend to only drink classic styles...and then bash any newer style because you like the classics.

you're like my uncle Sid who complains that music hasn't been good since the 1960s. just like music, beer styles have changed. you're personal tastes aren't interested in the changes and progression of the beer palate. and that's fine, but you then shouldn't state that you don't think that US beer is any good, etc etc.

like Chris and, i would guess, most posters, i don't love all beer out there. don't hand me a pumpkin anything. I'm not a hophead. and any smoked beer is not my thing. but other people love it, and that's why i have my caveat. Stone is not my favourite brewery because of the styles the tend to brew. but i respect others' opinions of Stone and, therefore, respect the brewery. the Drink By brew is a lovely and smart gimmick, but it makes sense (and is one of the few IPAs i've actually really enjoyed).

but just like my Uncle Sid, who really digs the classics, guys like you, Gary, can appreciate a really clean pilsner more than i probably can (even though I was lucky enough to try one of the Pilsner Urquel special releases that made their way to Toronto and really, really enjoyed the delicate floral properties of that beer). but you can't cling to your mullet or denim jacket or Zubaz and cry that everything new sucks.

bringing it back to Ontario and Chris's point: there is nothing innovative about all of these new Ontario breweries putting out a stout or an "ale" as their first 1-3 releases. waiting for someone to be daring and to start off by releasing something cool, like a gose. or, hey! an all-brett beer. playing it safe never got anyone anywhere.

[Craig]

I had a similar experience with Hill Farmstead. I thought I knew good hoppy beer before I got there. In fact, I had even been to a few well-regarded US breweries to try their best IPAs (Lunch comes to mind) and had the generally impression that Ontario was underrated and the US overrated. Bt then I got three hoppy beers from HF and they all blew me away. An APA, an IPA and a DIPA and I maintain they were the three best hoppy beers I had ever had. I liked them all better than Heady too, which I tried later that day.

That said, outside of those three beers I still find the best of Ontario fairly comparable to the best of the US. I think it depends more on who makes the specific style you like than anything. I thought Lake Effect was tremendous this year, especially because I could get it so fresh, but I had a Wookey Jack from Firestone Walker last weekend that honestly underwhelmed. Probably freshness played a part there.

[iguenard]

L'Amère à Boire in Montreal make the best lagers I have ever tasted. They blow away stuff like Jacks Abbey, Trois Mousquettaires... you never hear of them because lagers aren't "in" in the hipster crowd (yet).

The Albion brewpub make the best bitter you'll have ever had. Straight english style bitter. No nonsense, no 5% alcohol. Just a damn fuckin fine bitter.

Classic styles that dont interest 90% of US breweries. Doesn't mean its the Duke Ellignton of beer styles... think of them as John Mayers that take an old style and make it cool again. I havent read in your post that you dont like classics, but you make it sound like its passé and not cool.

Peensteen: +1 on the HF game-changing hop-forward ales, and redefining one's expectations of styles based on personal-utopia beers.

[Craig]

atom, there have been breweries who go after it with their first release. Radical Road started with a barrel-aged wee heavy, Bush Pilot started with a barley wine aged in Calvados that had like 20 ingredients and Spearhead started with a pineapple IPA.

I didn't particularly like any of those beers. To be fair wee heavys and fruity IPAs are very much not my style and I haven't bothered to try the bw yet because I think it needs some age to be alright, but I think it makes a certain amount of sense for a brewery to walk before they run. Heck, even Bellwoods spent quite a bit of time and energy on a line of single-hop IPAs before they started releasing the string of barrels and sours they've been putting out recently.

[G.M. Gillman]

Atomeyes: not true. I greatly enjoy Black IPA, and have often said so here. Ditto pumpkin stout and some pumpkin beer "tout court". I like what I like, as you do, but it includes a number of New World styles, as it happens.

I have followed New World brewing since it started circa-1980 and have been one of its greatest proponents, but I will say what I think has great merit and what doesn't. You don't have to agree but it doesn't invalidate my viewpoint.

Gary

P.S. I am 63 years old and love rock music, nor did I stop in 1969. 1990, okay, maybe.

[markaberrant]

atom, there have been breweries who go after it with their first release. Radical Road started with a barrel-aged wee heavy, Bush Pilot started with a barley wine aged in Calvados that had like 20 ingredients and Spearhead started with a pineapple IPA.

I didn't particularly like any of those beers. To be fair wee heavys and fruity IPAs are very much not my style and I haven't bothered to try the bw yet because I think it needs some age to be alright, but I think it makes a certain amount of sense for a brewery to walk before they run.

Radical Road - contract, gimmick beer
Bush Pilot - contract, gimmick beer
Spearhead - contract, gimmick beer

Blah.

Learn how to actually made a good beer first.

[markaberrant]

bringing it back to Ontario and Chris's point: there is nothing innovative about all of these new Ontario breweries putting out a stout or an "ale" as their first 1-3 releases. waiting for someone to be daring and to start off by releasing something cool, like a gose. or, hey! an all-brett beer. playing it safe never got anyone anywhere.

Sorry, but I completely disagree. So many variables to consider when opening a brewery; figuring out how the equipment works and dialing in your processes/recipes is just one small piece of the puzzle.

You gotta start with basic beers to figure out your brewing system, and to frankly have a product that turns over quickly and has wide appeal so you can start bringing in some much needed revenue.

Now if you never do get good at brewing these beers, and/or you never brew anything else, then you've got a point.

[TheSevenDuffs]

atom, there have been breweries who go after it with their first release. Radical Road started with a barrel-aged wee heavy, Bush Pilot started with a barley wine aged in Calvados that had like 20 ingredients and

... and sadly, those two beers were absolutely awful (in my opinion, of course).

Innovation isn't enough; execution is a key element too. I know that not every brewery will hit it out of the ball park right away and I will continue to support those who are adventurous. I also purchased the second Radical Road beer, despite my bad experience with the first as I respected their creativity. Hopefully the will get better.

Same goes for Bush Pilot.

Spearhead is a topic of its own, so I won't adress them here. But I don't buy their beer unless there are no other craft or crafty options.

[G.M. Gillman]

Just a bit of background in terms of my appreciation of British and craft U.S. beer traditions. I had tried Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Liberty Ale, Newman's Pale Ale (Bill Newman was the first craft brewer on the East Coast), Boulder Pale Ale (still made in somewhat altered form) and some other very early U.S. craft brews before first visiting England. Before, not after. My first trip to U.K. was about 1985.

So my appreciation of the two traditions, and consequent opinions, were essentially concurrent, not sequential. I could have easily concluded that the best English real ale was inferior to the emerging APA style. I didn't quite conclude the contrary, but I still believe the greatest English cask and bottle-conditioned beers are in a class of their own. Given the interest in England today in APA and IPA, who knows if the kind of beers I greatly admired will survive. But that is a separate issue.

Gary

[Belgian]

L'Amère à Boire in Montreal make the best lagers I have ever tasted.

I'll have to go back to L'Amere, all their beers tasted 'green' to me in the high-demand summer season but then so did those of Cheval Blanc, BrewTopia and Benelux (some have proven to show far better.)

Far as definition of 'world class' I think of stylistically integral beers that do 'make the class' world-wide, such as Orval, Rochefort and Celebrator - or even Anchor Steam, Stone Ruination and Ola Dubh 40. Some tiny barrel-aged productions may not have true world status since, in mass terms they barely exist enough to appear on the consensual radar, yes? But then I'd hate to do that to De Dolle, who kick nearly every brewer off the map though they're kind of tiny. OK I'd still say maybe Phillips Amnesiac is a world-class DIPA but that's only my world.

... Any brewery that I did not mention above has yet to impress me with a single barrel aged beer....

I like Nickel Brook's barrel treatments when they hit them right on. World Class! If you can get 'em...

[G.M. Gillman]

Since there's a lot of talk about barrelled beers, an example of a very good one IMO is Cameron's Obsidian Stout. It is very well put together and the barrel aging doesn't dominate the drink. It lends its particular accent and stops just at the right point.

Gary

[TheSevenDuffs]

I like Nickel Brook's barrel treatments when they hit them right on. World Class! If you can get 'em...

Now that I think about it, if I came across Winey Bastard again, I'd probably buy a bottle/pint.