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chris_schryer wrote:Mark, regarding using aggregate sites as a purchasing guide, I've already said twice, that I think that's just fine. But I have a serious problem with you calling out three breweries by name, two of which you've never had, based on descriptions you've read. You can think that's okay, but I sure don't. "I read it on the internet" is never a good defense.
Fair enough.
I was responding to an original discussion about how new breweries should come out swinging for the fences with creative beers. 3 breweries were suggested by someone else, and when I looked them up, all were doing it on contract, and none appeared to have hit a home run, which supported my position that it is better to play it safe with your initial beer launch, as it is very hard to produce great beer off the get go, and even harder to produce great zany beer off the get go. If I said anything wrong, then I am sorry.
BlackRedGold wrote:Is this really an Ontario thing though? Quebec has a lot more really good brewers but they still have a ton of mediocre microbrew sitting on shelves. I suspect the same thing is prevalent in the US.
In Montreal right now. I have tried six beers I had never tried before. One was acceptable the others pretty awful.
Some of this I think is due to the bandwagon trend that Ontario also shares. Lot's of brewers gravitating to the same styles. Perhaps it's due to their personal preferences, lack of imagination or what they think is the pull of the market.
Ontario may be overrun with hoppy pale ale attempts. Quebec is a miserable combination of Belgian styles (which I just don't personally like) and poor execution. Some homebrew club here must have convinced themselves that infecting or otherwise spoiling your beer makes it Belgian or 'craft'. That mantra seems to have worked it's way into commercial production. They are also at that juvenile state we saw in the US over a decade ago where everything you brewed had to clock in starting at 8%. The predominant flavor after nasty yeast that hasn't flocculated is booze.
Brands are for cattle.
Fans are cash cows.
The herd will consume until consumed.
chris_schryer wrote:
In terms of brewers posting, Mark and Mandie Murphy are around a bit too. But I agree, brewers would be in a weird spot here. Particularly the ones who think that there are some breweries making stellar barrel-aged beers in Ontario
You caught me.... I'm a daily reader as well, but don't usually feel the need to chime in. I was the same way with the Blue Jays discussion forum back when I had a boring desk job. I use the forum to stay up to date, hear your opinions (on all beers, not just mine) and get inspiration. I especially like reading people's feedback on different beer events because I don't get to experience them the same way I used to.
iguenard wrote:L'Amère à Boire in Montreal make the best lagers I have ever tasted. They blow away stuff like Jacks Abbey, Trois Mousquettaires... you never hear of them because lagers aren't "in" in the hipster crowd (yet).
They make absolutely fantastic 'continental' lagers. So good in fact that it took me a long time to discover their house cask ale hidden on the menu. It is excellent for that style. This place is seriously underrated. I have beer lover friends in Montreal who never heard of the place until I took them there.
Oh, and how did I find out about it? A recommendation on Bartowel years ago.
Brands are for cattle.
Fans are cash cows.
The herd will consume until consumed.
markaberrant wrote:
I was responding to an original discussion about how new breweries should come out swinging for the fences with creative beers. 3 breweries were suggested by someone else, and when I looked them up, all were doing it on contract, and none appeared to have hit a home run, which supported my position that it is better to play it safe with your initial beer launch, as it is very hard to produce great beer off the get go, and even harder to produce great zany beer off the get go. If I said anything wrong, then I am sorry.
That's not logical because you're assuming that if they had played it safe with their initial beer style that they would have hit a home run. Do you really think they'd have been better off or received more notoriety if they had started out with a blond ale?
It is hard to produce great beer of any style at first. But at least if a brewer starts out with a unique style they don't have to compete with many other breweries doing the same style if they start out with a pale ale or IPA.
BlackRedGold wrote:
That's not logical because you're assuming that if they had played it safe with their initial beer style that they would have hit a home run. Do you really think they'd have been better off or received more notoriety if they had started out with a blond ale?
It is hard to produce great beer of any style at first. But at least if a brewer starts out with a unique style they don't have to compete with many other breweries doing the same style if they start out with a pale ale or IPA.
Not sure what your brewing experience or knowledge is, but as I have said many times in this thread alone, the fewer the variables, the higher the probabilty is of producing a great beer. Not sure how that logic is flawed.
Shit is shit beer. And great beer is great beer. Doesnt matter if it is a cream ale or barrel aged stout. Make an outstanding IPA and I guarantee you wont feel the market is crowded.
Tapsucker wrote:Quebec is a miserable combination of Belgian styles (which I just don't personally like) ...The predominant flavor after nasty yeast that hasn't flocculated is booze.
if you like, I can direct you to another poster in this thread who also bashes beer that are brewed in styles that he doesn't appreciate. and afterwards, you two can get your brakes replaced by a great pasty chef i know.
markaberrant wrote:Make an outstanding IPA and I guarantee you wont feel the market is crowded.
and shout the loudest in a screaming match and everyone will hear you. or will they?
doesn't hurt to try something different. just ask Left Field. their styles don't excite me, but you can't question their marketing/concept. did they set out to be best in class or did they just try to wear a funny hat so they'd get noticed? either way, it has worked in their favour.
atomeyes wrote:
and shout the loudest in a screaming match and everyone will hear you. or will they?
doesn't hurt to try something different. just ask Left Field. their styles don't excite me, but you can't question their marketing/concept. did they set out to be best in class or did they just try to wear a funny hat so they'd get noticed? either way, it has worked in their favour.
Sure whatever. My point has always been that high quality beer should be a minimum baseline... Get there however you want, and brew whatever styles make you happy. Great beer always rises to the top, and there is always room for more of it.
There is no doubt that marketing is critical as well, and great beer without great marketing wont get you very far. Some breweries are seemingly getting by on marketing alone... "Hey we're a craft brewery and craft beer is cool!"
Tapsucker wrote:Quebec is a miserable combination of Belgian styles (which I just don't personally like) ...
And eff you! (just kidding) I don't know why immature, sweet belgian ales (< not named after me) are so popular there, except that Montrealers must really like the taste of unattenuated malt sugars, yeast and booze.
Tapsucker wrote:In Montreal right now. I have tried six beers I had never tried before. One was acceptable the others pretty awful.
No man that's 'living the dream.' Continue to abuse your liver... actually the good thing is there is another new beer every 40 minutes in Montreal, so there seem to be enough choices to avoid a really low average. On good days.
^ this is also why I love ordering sample trays at Vices et Versa, and being able to order "galopin" and "verre" sizes which are much more widely accepted around Montreal. A disgusting beer served in just a few oz is still good conversation.
At least at Vices et Versa, you have someone doing some selection before the tap list even goes up, so your odds of getting stinkers goes way down. The real scary thing is going to a good bottle shop and trying a bunch of small breweries you've never heard of. I've done that once or twice and been generally disappointed. Seems like Quebec, as a rule, can't make a decent IPA.
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All this talk about new brewers not swinging for the fences right away is I think a little misleading. Like I pointed out with the three examples, there are breweries that try to innovate right away, and yes I consider Bush Pilot an attempt to be innovative, it's just that none of them have actually succeeded in hitting the home run people want. The criticism shouldn't be that they're not trying, it's that they're failing.
I'd rather see new breweries take some cracks at more established styles we don't get much of in Ontario. Why not try a saison or a brown? Maybe a sessionable porter or stout? Or a Gose? But then, I encourage the established breweries to do the same thing, so I don't see why the focus on new guys.
Ha, a new brewery in Saskatchewan debuted this fall with a Helles, a saison and a hefeweizen. Their seasonals have been a sour saison, a local fresh hop IPA, toffee porter and hazelnut espresso stout.
The local geeks are complaining that they arent making enough big hoppy beers...
markaberrant wrote:Ha, a new brewery in Saskatchewan debuted this fall with a Helles, a saison and a hefeweizen. Their seasonals have been a sour saison, a local fresh hop IPA, toffee porter and hazelnut espresso stout.
The local geeks are complaining that they arent making enough big hoppy beers...
That sounds about right. I'd be thrilled if I lived in a town with 1 good German brewer, 1 good Belgian brewer, 1 good British brewer, and 1 good North American brewer. Instead I get Beau's. BtP is also too scatter shot. They've made some good beers, but you just never know.
Mark, I totally agree with you about brewers getting base styles down before amping them up. I can almost hear the conversation:
Brewer A "Hey we should try making a black IPA"
Brewer B "Totally! except, let's use a Belgian yeast"
A "Oh yeah, that would be awesome! And let's spice it with dried licorice root"
B "Heck yes! And let's age half of it in bourbon barrels, and the other half in Chardonnay, and blend it"
A "Oh man, that would be dope. And we could bottle ferment it with a German lager yeast"
B "So, do you know what kind of malts go in a BIPA?"
A "Ummm, probably just lots of chocolate and black malt. I think. I'll google it."
chris_schryer wrote:Mark, I totally agree with you about brewers getting base styles down before amping them up. I can almost hear the conversation:
Brewer A "Hey we should try making a black IPA"
Brewer B "Totally! except, let's use a Belgian yeast"
A "Oh yeah, that would be awesome! And let's spice it with dried licorice root"
B "Heck yes! And let's age half of it in bourbon barrels, and the other half in Chardonnay, and blend it"
A "Oh man, that would be dope. And we could bottle ferment it with a German lager yeast"
B "So, do you know what kind of malts go in a BIPA?"
A "Ummm, probably just lots of chocolate and black malt. I think. I'll google it."
squeaky wrote:I'd rather see new breweries take some cracks at more established styles we don't get much of in Ontario. Why not try a saison or a brown? Maybe a sessionable porter or stout? Or a Gose?.
Exactly what Left Field did, and it's been successful. Came out of the gate with a very good brown ale - the best in the province by my lights.
